EK 1914 Iron Cross, 1st class

[Bill Garvy]

I enjoy collecting what I call "hybrid" Iron Crosses, that is, Imperial (1914) issue Iron Crosses manufactured during World War II. Here is an unmarked Iron Cross in 1st Class recently added to my collection. I was wondering if someone could help me identify the possible manufacturer of this cross. Let me know if you need more pictures, and thank you for your interest!

obverse:

reverse:

Edited February 4, 2006 by Bill Garvy

[Bill Garvy]

Here are some additional views of the clasp and pin from the reverse. . .

clasp & pin:

clasp & vaulting:

[joe campbell]

bill-

nice addition to your collection!

certainly shape and pin put it squarely

in TR period. the detail on the numbers

and the crown aren't up to earlier standards

in terms of crispness, but this was a

jewellers piece.

i've always liked the stovepipe finish as well.

joe

[DavidM]

Hello Bill

I can't say for absolute certainty, but my guess as to the manufacturer would be Steinhauer und Luck. I base this on the style of the pin and hinge.

[Bill Garvy]

David,

Thank you for your input, but I don't think its a Steinhauer & L?ck. Here's a Steinhauer & L?ck from my collection for comparison. Note the enhanced detail on the obverse, the variant style pin and hinge, and no vaulting. It does have that classic Steinhauer clasp though. . .

obverse:

reverse:

clasp:

Edited February 4, 2006 by Bill Garvy

[DavidM]

Hello Bill

Yes I see what you are saying. However, on page 139 of Gordon Williamsons book, 'The Iron Cross of 193' there is a photo of an S&L 1939 EK1 which has a different pin and hinge to the one you have shown here - but it does look pretty similar to the WW2 re-struck WW1 one that you originally posted.

The one in Gordons book has the large 'block' type hinge, as does your WW1 EK, with the pin attached across the top of the hinge and a long narrow end to the pin - again pretty similar to the one on your WW1 EK.

I'm not saying I'm right that your's is by S&L, but I still think it's a possibilty.

I sincerely hope that Gordon doesn't mind, but I have attached a scan of the one from his book to this note to illustrate what I have said.

[Bill Garvy]

I see the similarity, but in both instances the clasps are quite simliar, and do not match the narrow round clasp shown in my first post. For the time being, however, I'm not ruling out Steinhauer as a possible manufacturer. Any other thoughts? Edited February 4, 2006 by Bill Garvy

[DavidM]

Hello Bill

My only other thought is possibly a Deumer. Their 1939 EK1s also have similar pin, hinge and clasp to the WW1 EK that you posted here.

Outside of this, in my opinion, the only other contenders would be Klien & Quenzer, Carl Wild, (although the clasp on their pieces that I have seen is quite distinct and different to that on yours), and Junkers.

Hopefuly some of the other forum members will chip in, as I dare say that someone has 1939 EK1 who's hardware on the reverse matches yours.

[Bill Garvy]

These are all real possibilities, David. I especially like the Deumer idea. I've just not seen a Steinhauer & L?ck with a clasp as shown in the first post, although the other components appear quite similar. I agree. I'd llke to hear others' thinking on the matter. . .

[DavidM]

Hello Bill

I've been doing a bit of searching, and here is one I didn't think of, B H Mayer. Have a look at the pin and hinge in the photo attached here. In the second picture is the clasp on my B H Mayer. Mine has been slightly squashed at some stage, but you can still see that is a wire type, like that on the WW1 that you posted.

A possibilty ?

[Bill Garvy]

Dave, funny you should mention B. H Meyer, because here is an unmarked example for comparison. The clasp on the example in my first post is round wire, and not the flattened type I have seen on Meyer manufactured crosses.

obverse:

reverse:

clasp & vaulting:

I'm leaning toward Deumer, with the outside possibly of Juncker manufacture, especially in the absence of any additionally compelling evidence.

I really enjoy thinking "out loud" with you on this, in a manner of speaking. . .

[DavidM]

Hello Bill

I'm going to do a comparison of the different manufacturers rims, beading etc to see if I can find a match. It will be later in the week before I get back to on this though.

I too am enjoying this, especially as it is making me look closely at the identifiers for the different makers. A good and enjoyable learning exercise !

Regards

David

[Bill Garvy]

Here is what I believe to be a post World War I manufactured Iron Cross in 1st Class by Deumer. It's similarity to the cross originally posted in this topic thread, which I believe may also be of Deumer manufacture, is worth contributing to this discussion.

obverse:

reverse:

clasp:

[DavidM]

Hello Bill

I really think you may have something here. I'll get back to you tomorrow. Tonight is not a good time - I've been on a liquid leaving do for member of staff !!

[DavidM]

Hello Bill

This cross was on Detlevs site on Friday. Not the best picture to work from, but looking at the set up on the back I see a lot of similarities to yours. The block style hinge, the round wire type catch, and the shape of the pin.

This is WW2 manufactured replacement EK1, 1914 and is stamped L/11 which is of course Wilhelm Deumer of Ludenscheid.

I feel now that yours can only be either a Mayer or a Deumer. Looking back at the other suggestions I think we have pretty well eliminated them through comparison.

Mayer or Deumer ? That's the question now.

Edited February 12, 2006 by DavidM

[joe campbell]

an L/12 screwback.

[joe campbell]

maker mark.

enjoy,

joe

[Bill Garvy]

Here's another example of a post World War I manufactured cross. It appears to have either an Otto Schickle or Alois Rettenmaier pin, hinge, and clasp configuration; they are inded quite similar to my eye. What was even more surprising was the non-magnetic core!

obverse:

[attachmentid=28977]

reverse:

[attachmentid=28978]

[Bill Garvy]

Here are the clasp & hinge configuration. What do you gentlemen think?

clasp:

[attachmentid=28979]

Note the absence of any evidence of a seam, indicating one-piece construction as well; a very special cross indeed!

hinge:

[attachmentid=28980]

Edited July 5, 2006 by Bill Garvy

[Bill Garvy]

An unmarked Meybauer obviously manufactured during the early years of the Third Reich. . .

obverse:

reverse:

[Bill Garvy]

An "L/11" Wilhelm Deumer manufactured during the Third Reich Period. . .

obverse:

reverse:

maker mark:

[ekhunter]

Hello Bill

My only other thought is possibly a Deumer. Their 1939 EK1s also have similar pin, hinge and clasp to the WW1 EK that you posted here.

Outside of this, in my opinion, the only other contenders would be Klien & Quenzer, Carl Wild, (although the clasp on their pieces that I have seen is quite distinct and different to that on yours), and Junkers.

Hopefuly some of the other forum members will chip in, as I dare say that someone has 1939 EK1 who's hardware on the reverse matches yours.

I'm late on this discussion, but I believe that Bill's first example is a Deumer. The crown on the core lacks the detail, but this can be due to wear and tear of the core over time. However, IMHO the hinge, clasp and pin are distinctly Deumer, even down to the way Deumer tapers the tip of the pin. it does lack the distinctive "pigtail" clasp, that many look for, but not all of the Deumer's had this either. Also, the clasp, being higher up from the bottom, is very similiar to the cased one that one Detlev had for sale. If I were lucky enough to be buying it, I would assume it was a Deumer....Just MHO. Russel