Dave Wilkinson

This particular Merseyside Police ceremonial helmet replaced the "Liverpool City" version which we talked about previously. The change took place in circa.1983. Again supplied by Christy's of Stockport, the helmet shown is the version which is worn by Sergeants and Constables. There is a helmet which has chrome plated edging to the peak which is worn by the OIC of the mounted section. You will notice that the side "roses" are smaller than the previous issue, and it includes the current (ceremonial) version of the Merseyside Police helmet plate. A sign of the times is that the plumes are now made of a synthetic material whereas the old Liverpool City versions were made of real horse hair. Traditionally, the red plume is worn by mounted drummers.

Dave.   

23 hours ago, I_♥_Police said:

What an absolutely amazing looking helmet. I dare say it can't have been much fun to wear, but even so. Out of interest is it padded inside at all or like the old cork liner type ones? What a true one off as you say and consigned to history had it not been for your post so thanks.

 

Also, on the subject of helmets I don't suppose you have a Met inspectors helmet with the two silver bands rather than one black one or any information about this? I've seen photos from 80s Brixton riots with Inspectors wearing them in serials and one as recent being worn a few years ago on Flickr. I would imagine this is newly issued at the time as surely if it was an old one passed on the liner would have disintegrated? Do you also know Dave what forces issued Inspector helmets? I know Met, Northampton chief constable has been pictures in one and Sussex but no others. Thanks.

Hi,

The interior of the Mer.Pol. helmet is as shown in the below photo. The force used to buy the basic helmet shells (made of compressed felt) from Christy's of Stockport (long gone). They would then transfer the metalwork from the old helmet shell and then fit it to the new one. Hence the use of King's Crown helmet plates. As I said previously the helmets were worn by different men as and when required. For reasons of hygiene, paper skull caps were used on each occasion. You are right, its not too comfortable to wear and I can imagine trying to ride and control a horse while wearing one would be quite trying.    

With regard to Met.Pol. Inspectors helmets. I did at one time have an example but have long since parted with it. Interestingly I recall one being worn by a Chief Inspector who was standing in Westminster Hall during the Queen's lying in state. So, although I don't think they are issued any longer, they are obviously still in the possession of certain people who are still serving. It will be interesting to see if any of them get an airing during the forthcoming Coronation. 

Apart from the forces you mention, I think the BTP also issued them at one time. As for wear during public order situations, I don't think they were very popular. The distinctive appearance tended to mark the wearer out as a potential target, especially by stone throwers.

Dave. 

In an attempt to generate some discussion of this subject I'm going to post some further images from my helmet collection. First up is a Liverpool City Police Chief Inspector's helmet. The gent who wore this helmet was the officer commanding the Liverpool City Police, Liverpool & Bootle Constabulary and Merseyside Police Mounted Department (up until circa. 1984). Just to clarify, although the plate has on it the King's Crown and the Liverpool City wording, the helmets continued to be worn by the mounted men on ceremonial occasions across the time period of the three forces through to 1983. They were expensive items for the force to buy and were only worn on two or three occasions each year. There was no personal issue. They were drawn from the Mounted Dept. Stores for the event and returned immediately after. This particular helmet was a "one off". It was the only one with chrome edging to the peak, and was  worn by the one and only Chief Inspector commanding the Dept. They were often seen being worn on "Grand National" day. 

In 1983, the whole of the "Liverpool City" stock of helmets were withdrawn and replaced by the current "Merseyside" badged version which continues in use to this day. That said, they are now seldom if ever worn. I will show the Merseyside current version in a later post.

Dave.  

Thought this may be of interest to members.

Dave.

2 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

Nottinghamshire are certainly, blazing a trail! 

These are not an issue item, They are being produced by an enterprising individual for profit.

Dave. 

Its a long time since anyone contributed to this thread so here are a couple of items from my collection. Firstly, a cap worn by the Chief Constable of Rochdale during the early part of the 20th century and a ceremonial helmet worn by Inspectors in the City of London Police. The latter item ceased to be used during the 1960's.

Dave.  

19 minutes ago, Cerrig-Man said:

Yes I would imagine they are. I would also suspect, that they are pretty cheapish to produce?

 

Although having said that, I hear from a military source, that units within the British army, will begin re badging on the 6th May of  those present for the Coronation, and the next day for those not. That is going to be a massive undertaking, I would imagine. I would expect that we will begin to start seeing police badges, with the King's crown within the near future. Whether there will be a mass rebadging mind, I suspect will depend of the force. But as we no longer have a Queen as head of state, I wonder whether there will be any legal requirement, to update such things, before we see some sort of stated case, with some solicitor trying his luck, about an officer not being in the correct uniform or some other such piffle. 

There are actually a number of stated cases already on the statute book which touch upon whether a bobby is correctly dressed or not. None of those cases favoured the appellant. Most relate to the (then) newly introduced drink drive legislation whereby a constable in uniform had power to demand a breath test from a motorist. The basis for the appeal being that the officer was not wearing a helmet/cap at the time of the request. It was held that despite the absence of headgear he/she WAS in uniform. So, the fact that the wrong Sovereign's Crown/cipher was being worn will not wash with the courts.

Dave.    

Try the National Archives at Kew. The HM Coastguard have since its formation fallen under the control of a variety of Government Departments, so you may have to try a number of differing headings. From memory they were initially the responsibility of the Admiralty then the Board of Trade and most recently the Dept. of Transport. You say your medal is from the Victorian period so on that basis any medal role records will be at Kew. Best of luck.

Dave. 

2 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, seem to have opted for a more simpler design. 

There is already a thread on this under "New Title for Hampshire Constabulary". The design was first "launched" in November 2022. That said they are apparently not changing the headdress badges. 

21 minutes ago, ashley58 said:

I thought that in a recent interview it was stated the Charles (being eco friendly etc) wanted all existing stocks (of medals+) to be used before new ones were to be struck?

You will see that the Winnipeg Police "notice" makes clear that badges and other items will be replaced through attrition. In other words current stocks will all be used before new ones are introduced.

Dave. 

My pleasure.

Dave.

Oldham Borough Police, without a doubt.

Dave.

Possibly a state police medal of some sort.

Dave.

Coins, unless of an obsolete denomination are such that they tend to last and circulate for 60,70 or 80 years (and longer). So, they don't really fall into the same category as medals, stamps, badge and associated items of uniform. The mint presumably have a coin replacement/circulation policy which caters for a certain number of coins to be put into circulation each year. They presumably don't hold stocks and so to comply with their policy they would have to "mint" new coins. So, why not do so using a new die featuring the King's profile?  As a aside, such enquiries that I've been able to make with several police forces have confirmed that they have no intention of changing the cipher (where used) or crown on any of their headdress badges in the immediate future. 

Dave.    

He appears to be wearing a Metropolitan Special Constabulary uniform. The cap badge is certainly that of the MSC. His shoulder title is "HQCD" (Headquarters Central Detachment). He is probably a senior officer, although his rank markings (if that is what they are) are not familiar to me. I show herewith the cap badge he is wearing.

I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

On 01/03/2023 at 09:15, Nick said:

Call me a cynic or perhaps disillusioned if you want. But the problem with the UK, as proven time and time again is that the criteria for awards is governed by archaic rules and process, set by faceless unaccountable individuals who don't want to step away from tradition steeped in class and privilege. Unless you are a celebrity, sports person  or part of the establishment, the criteria that governs who gets what is biased, and restrictive. Time and time again years and years of campaigning is required to get recognition for many individuals who are deserving of some kind of award, and by the time the award is approved, conveniently many of the deserving have already passed away. This has alway been the way, the Military General Service Medal being a case in point. There is certainly no will or desire to recognise anything undertaken within the police or other civilian services, many campaigns for recognition have fallen on deaf ears over the years. Too busy looking after their cronies in the establishment and other undeserving cases. 

Well said!

The King has apparently made it known that stocks (of anything?) are not to be destroyed simply because they bear the image of the late Queen or her Cipher. They are all to be used prior to any new versions are produced bearing his image etc. He's told Royal Mail that they must use all their stocks of old issue EIIR stamps before commencing to use those showing his image.

It seems obvious that this also applies to medals.

"King’s Effigy on medals, to be issued imminently". This thread was started on 4th October 2022. I don't think so any time soon!

5 minutes ago, I_♥_Police said:

Thanks for posting Dave! No one else has a collection like you do and we rely on you for these gems!

That's kind of you to say so. Thank you!

Dave.

Norman,

I think you may have cracked it then!

Dave.

The cap badge is the bullion wire coat of arms of Coventry. I think that they are Coventry bobbies as those bullion wire badges were indeed worn by Senior Officers of Coventry City Police as can be seen in the second image of my badge grouping from there.

Dave.

The cap & badge he is wearing and his lack of a duty armlet suggests that he is a member of a divisional band. Most, but not all Metpol. divisions maintained their own bands. They sometimes adopted a cap badge other than a Metpol. issued version. They were usually funded via their divisional welfare contributions. The name/location of the photographer is not really relevant as both the photographers and their subjects often travelled.

Dave.    

I

On 06/01/2023 at 15:05, Hannah Mc said:

Hi there, 

 

My name is Hannah McMillan and I am a senior researcher for Rare TV. We are currently making the BBC Two series Expert Witness. 

 

There is a case that Adam Hibbert was involved in that we would like to cover but as he has retired, I am struggling to get in contact with him. 

 

Just messaging to see if you still have an email or phone number of his? My email address is hannah.mcmillan@rare-tv.com if you wouldn't mind getting in touch. Your help would be very much appreciated. 

 

Best,

Hannah

Hannah,

If you prepare a suitable letter and forward that sealed letter to the personnel dept of Sussex Police, with a request that it be posted on to Mr. Hibbert, that is one way of being able to contact him. Sussex Police will be paying Mr. Hibbert a pension and it follows that they will have his current address. For obvious reasons they will not give that information to you. However, they will pass on your letter to him. I myself have used this method of contacting retired bobbies and it works. I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

14 minutes ago, jermil said:

Hi Dave

 

all the best to you too.

 

last time I saw your Hon Police badges, you have 9 that I don’t have. Photo of mine from middle of last year, I added two more St Clement badges since pic was taken

 

although there are a few of the SJP and Guernsey Police you have that are absent from my collection.   

Norman,

Your overall collection of Channel Islands insignia is outstanding and your Parish Police badges especially. If we each had everything there would be no challenge anymore and it would cease to be the enjoyable pastime that it is. I've not added anything from the Parishes in the last few years. I really must try to get over sometime this year and if I'm able to make it I'll give you a shout.

Dave. 

14 hours ago, jermil said:

Apologies for late reply, work gets in the way of my hobbies.

 

Dave has answered the questions, unfortunately the quality of the current issued insignia is not great. 
 

The only badge issued by the SJP to all ranks is the new style warrant card badge, same as the Blue Enamel Inspectors badge but of solid construction, not voided.

The Police Honorifique badges are a collection in their own right.

 

I have over 65 variations and am still looking for at least 35 more that I know of.

Hope you are well Norman. I think I have quite a few of the 35 Police Honorifique variations you need but you're not getting them! Thanks for the info. in respect of the warrant badge, which I was not aware of. I agree the current badges are of poor quality. At least they've had the Inspectors badge finished in hard fired enamel instead of the cheap plastic epoxy. Best wishes for 2023.

Dave.   

On 02/01/2023 at 08:48, bigjarofwasps said:

How interesting!!
 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Just out of interest, when was this photograph taken?
 

Is it Gv1R or a very short lived Edward V111? 

 

 

As jermil has not responded, I will. The photo was taken circa. 1952/53. The badge being worn in the photo is the one which he actually shows in his post. It features the voided arms of Jersey in the centre.

Dave.

On 02/01/2023 at 15:01, I_♥_Police said:

Wow what a lovely badge. Is Jersey one of those places that still has one badge for Pc's and Sergeants and another for Inspector above or is it one for everyone now?

Yes, States of Jersey Police do have separate headdress badges for the two lower ranks and a different pattern enamelled cap badge for Inspectors up to Superintendent. The Chief and Deputy wear a bullion wire wreath.

Dave.