Legion Condor Panzer badge

[Guest Darrell]

Personnally I don't like too much the 2 last one.

The last one Peter posted almost appears to have the distinctive '57 reverse setup

[Jacques]

Here is an early picture of a PzGr. Drohne member. I think that he is wearing the awarded badge.

[Jacques]

same badge

[Jacques]

same

[PKeating]

This is generally accepted as being a Lisbon-made badge, albeit in bad condition, worn by Heinz-Theo Neumann. The pin is clearly a wartime repair job. But this bears a close resemblance to the badges worn by the officers and NCOs in the photos taken in Spain, which must by definition be the 'in-theatre' badges commissioned by von Thoma from the Lisbon firm.

Edited September 26, 2005 by PKeating

[PKeating]

Here is a badge that is believed by some to be a 1960s reproduction and by others, usually those who have paid hefty prices for one, to be an original wartime badge made by some German firm for retail sale to recipients. I have always felt the sloppy finishing evident in the haphazard filing of the die flashing to be atypical of prewar and wartime German badge manufacture. Look at the eye sockets. But some people pay high prices for these...although nowhere near as much as for examples that correspond exactly to the type accepted as being from the stock awarded to eligible veterans in the summer of 1939 and through 1940 and 1941.

PK

Edited September 26, 2005 by PKeating

[PKeating]

And here is the badge received by Paul Z?ndorf during the award ceremony in Berlin in 1939. This is the type of badge over which hangs no question mark.

PK

[Jacques]

Here is another picture of Z?ndorf. May be he is wearing the badge you shown.

Winkler was/is selling a badge describe as coming from Z?ndorf.

I have several pics of him and it seems that he had seveal different badges.

[PKeating]

Z?ndorf's nachla? was broken up by Kai Winkler. I heard that there was more than one badge but the one I have shown is the type awarded before the parade in Berlin in June 1939. It could be by Hermann Wernstein as a very similar hinge and pin assembly has been seen on this maker's Panzerkampfabzeichen. That said, the hinge and pin assembly appears to be a copy of the set-up on the second pattern Lisbon badges, which is logical as the German firm was probably lent a Lisbon badge and told to copy it. Here is another photo of Z?ndorf. I enjoyed owning this badge but swapped it for something I just could not refuse!

PK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Prosper, have you been able to identify any of these badges to any manufacturer's catalogs such as the Otto Schickel catalog that Gorden identified?

[PKeating]

More Z?ndorf...

Edited September 26, 2005 by PKeating

[PKeating]

Comparison of a known original (the Z?ndorf badge) and a dangerous fake of it, offered a while ago by an American dealer.

PK

[PKeating]

The reverse. Close...but no banana! Note particularly the hinge assembly: the base is too small so the cutout is redundant. There are plenty of other differences but you can have fun spotting them.

[Gordon Williamson]

Fascinating thread! Just out of interest, as well as the main catalogue illustration from Schickle that Jacques showed earlier in the thread, the 1940 Otto Schickle Catalogue supplement also illustrated the full size badge and its miniature.

[PKeating]

Prosper, have you been able to identify any of these badges to any manufacturer's catalogs such as the Otto Schickel catalog that Gorden identified?

Well, only two of the badges I have posted are originals. The others are either fakes or questionable. I don't think any of them conform to the image in the wartime Otto Schickle catalogue. In any case, as I said, the images in period catalogues are either drawings or retouched photographs so while they serve as a rough guide, they do not constitute proof for the purposes of authentication because they are simply not of sufficiently high fidelity to absolutely sure. It is rather like trying to identify or, rather, authenticate something using the Dr Doehle book. However, I would say that I am inclined to believe that your badge is indeed an original wartime variant by Otto Schickle. Other variants certainly existed, as wartime photographs in this thread show, but with the level of skill and effort that has evidently been put into producing fakes of this badge, fakers have obviously referred to period photographs to produce quite convincing items. It is a tricky subject and my advice to inexperienced potential buyers is to stick to badges that are accepted without question - by serious students of the subject and by dint of provenance, I hasten to add - as either textbook Lisbon pieces or 1939 award pieces. Pay the price and enjoy peace of mind because the minute you have to start justifying something to the peanut gallery, it's always going to be hard to move it on and recoup your money.

PK

[PKeating]

Well, Gordon, I'd say the badge this tanker is wearing came from Otto Schickle.

And here, borrowed from another thread on GMIC, is a Wernstein PKA with a hinge and pin assembly that looks very like that on the 1939 badge as awarded to Paul Z?ndorf. I know that firms bought in hinge and pin assemblies but this is such an 'un-German', Iberian set-up that I think it's not unreasonable to wonder if it came from stock left over from the production of the Condor Legion Tank Badge and to suggest that the award badges were made by Hermann Wernstein.

PK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Prosper, Rick L. is certain that the O.Schickle picture is indeed a photograph. I cannot remember the technique appellation, but a photo nonetheless.

With regard to the pin/hinge I think it should be assumed that if dagger makers bought common parts from central suppliers it is equally likely badge makers did/could have purchased catch and pin/hinge supplies similarly.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[PKeating]

Well, Gordon, I'd say the badge this tanker is wearing came from Otto Schickle. It is clearly the same as the badge in the catalogue.

PK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

First I'd seen of the OS supplement. Without seeing the die flaw it would difficult to jump to that conclusion PK as so many of these badges "look alike".

Edited September 26, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Jacques]

Known pic of Becker with a badge which looks like the Schickle manufacture. All these badges are observed on post 1939 pics.

[PKeating]

I agree that it is a photograph. I think the term we're looking for here is 'half-tone'. Here it is again, alongside the pictures Jacques posted of Shickle-style badges.

These certainly look the same as the Schickle badge in the catalogue page posted by Gordon and the badge worn in the photo above. The deathheads are the same.

Below is Jacques' picture, in half-tones.

PK

[PKeating]

First I'd seen of the OS supplement. Without seeing the die flaw it would difficult to jump to that conclusion PK as so many of these badges "look alike".

I'm not jumping to conclusions. I am basing my conclusion on a careful comparison between the outline an d other characteristics of the close-up of the badge in the wartime photo and the picture of the badge in the wartime Schickle catalogue posted by Gordon. Look at the bones. Look at the top of the wreath and the outline of the leaves, in particular the leaf that protrudes more than the others. It is possible that they were not struck on the same dies but, IMO, improbable given the peculiarity of the design with that protruding leaf that is a borderline design flaw, rendering the wreath asymetrical. But that is only my opinion, Brian. If your opinion differs from mine, no problem.

PK

[Jacques]

I though it was a drawing, but you're surely right. What's about these cut out area between the bones and the whreath that do not fit with the first catalog picture ? is it a retouched photo ? or another variant from this manufacturer.

[PKeating]

Brian,

Could we see your badge as a whole? There is an apparent die flaw visible in the half-tone picture but the picture has been printed in half-tones and then, I would say, retouched so who is to say that evidence of a die flaw was not added by someone who wished to validate a die flaw on badges that looked like Schickle products? These fakers and forgers are a cunning lot, you know! The image on the catalogue page posted by Gordon seems untouched and is a better photograph than the half-tone one yet I cannot see any traces of the die flaw. It seems strange that traces of a die flaw would be left intact by an art room retoucher, doesn't it? I also can't see any die flaws on the badges posted by Jacques. And nor can I see any traces of any die flaw in the close-up of the Shickle badge in the wartime photo. So, if your badge was struck on the same dies as the badges in the unretouched catalogue photo, the wartime photo and the two studies of badges in collections, then it must postdate all those badges. Gosh! This is like the Steinhauer & L?ck thing, isn't it? I believe Otto Schickle was in business after WW2.

PK

[PKeating]

It is due to hand-finishing, Jacques. The form of the external and internal edges of these badges depends on how much die-flashing was filed off by the person finishing the badge. Collecting Luftwaffe flight badges as you do, you will be familiar with this. The main points to look at are die-struck surface characteristics and details, not filed edges. No two Condor Legion Tank Badges from the same dies have identical external contours. If you look at the retouched catalogue photo, you can actually see the die-flashing between the leaves and the bones. It's heavily pixelated because of the half-tone process but it is there.

PK