Garth Thompson Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I recently aquired this piece with in a large lot of various british medals. Can anyone help me in identifying it. The quality and enamel work are very good. It is done in two pieces and appeared to hang from a chain. Any help appreciated, Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garth Thompson Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 #2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garth Thompson Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 #3 reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter monahan Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 It appears to be a locket - I think I see a hinge and a'button' to open it on the edges. Any info inside? A lovely little piece, BTW Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garth Thompson Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 It appears to be a locket - I think I see a hinge and a'button' to open it on the edges. Any info inside? A lovely little piece, BTW Peter. Peter, I initially thought it was a locket but what you see are two pins that hold the top to the base. The enamelled top piece sets into the brass base and is held in position by the pins on either side. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 A wild guess - Badge for a courier of the Governor General of Bengal? Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 That would be a wonderful find - and not so far fetched. Tipstaffs of office were used quite often in India - and this badge has the Garter around and Hermes - the messenger of the gods - as a central motif. Will probably turn out to be for a signals unit. Did you get this idea from the King's Messenger insignia I posted ? Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Yes, of course! See how educational this Forum is? Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacHel Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 ...and this badge has the Garter around and Hermes - the messenger of the gods - as a central motif. Will probably turn out to be for a signals unit. That was my original thought, a souvenir from a comms/sigs unit. But why a garter? Any connection to the Order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I'm dealing from deep (and aged) memory here, so please bear with me. I don't think it's the Garter. (Should have "Honi soit..., shouldn't it?) It looks more to me like the belt which goes around Scottish clan badges (crests?) as worn by those other than the chief. I'm hoping someone with deeper knowledge will come along to bail me out. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 The Garter can be used without it's motto. The quality of this piece is very similar to my King's Messenger - even to the back - although there is no number. There is a High Court position known as The Tipstaff - perhaps this is his badge - Bombay - from E.I.C. days had it's own Court and an English appointed Recorder (or judge). I had a lovely silver tipstaff from 1810 showing all the appointments for Bombay. I think your next move must be to contact The Victoria and Albert Museum. Find the right department and see what they can offer - also, see if the main museum in Bombay can help ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hi, Mervyn, What's a tipstaff, anyway? Enquiring minds want to know! Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacHel Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) Hi, Mervyn, What's a tipstaff, anyway? Enquiring minds want to know! Hugh I didn't know either so I checked... -CLICK HERE- NOTE: Mervyn must be REAAALLY old to even know of this offhand huh? ;) Edited August 2, 2009 by TacHel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) The quality of this item is so good , that I am inclining even more to Hugh's thoughts on it being a badge of office. Will be good to know what the V&A have to say ? It looks like silver (or, brass) gilt - but the front could even be gold. Tipstaffs are badges of office - prior to the introduction of Warrant Cards or, I.D.'s in the 1880's. The Crown on top represents the authority of the King and the size and appearance often was at the whims of the office holder. Many different people could carry one - magistrates, judges, high constables - even, inspectors of pavements. You have all been neglecting our British Police sub-forum !!!! There are a number of tipstaffs (or, tipstaves, either is correct) posted. You will be amazed at their high quality and the materials used. They have a very high value and when my book was published we could only find evidence of about 2000 still in existance. This is against about 12000 heraldically painted truncheons. p.s. My avitar (?) is the head of a silver tipstaff for a London magistrate - 1802. Edited August 4, 2009 by Mervyn Mitton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 This is the rest of the magistrate's tipstaff for 1802. Superb workmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 What a beautiful piece of work! Now I've truly learned something this morning. Thanks, Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garth Thompson Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 The Garter can be used without it's motto. The quality of this piece is very similar to my King's Messenger - even to the back - although there is no number. There is a High Court position known as The Tipstaff - perhaps this is his badge - Bombay - from E.I.C. days had it's own Court and an English appointed Recorder (or judge). I had a lovely silver tipstaff from 1810 showing all the appointments for Bombay. I think your next move must be to contact The Victoria and Albert Museum. Find the right department and see what they can offer - also, see if the main museum in Bombay can help ? Mervyn, Thank you for your reply and input. Being in the US I really don't know how to get in touch with either the V & A or the main museum in Bombay. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulan Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Hello Gentleman, my interest leans more towards the Imperial times - (mostly German/Bavarian military collectables). Does anyone have information in regards to the British awards for participants of the Boxerrevolution. I would like to know if there were distinctions of this award given to participants such as the German Boxermedal e.g. gold for combattants and silver for administrative personal Please refer to the attachment: Thanks in advance, Regards Ulan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 This is the campaign medal for the punitive expedition in 1900. Please give the man's details from around the rim and we can check on him. There is a Bar - rare - 'Defence of Legations' and that is one of the highest value medals you can find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Hi - Garth. I'm so sorry I forgot to give you an address to enquire about your badge. I think it is well worth the effort and if it can be traced or, verified to an official position , then it will be worth a lot of money. Without any research and in present condition, I would value it at about £250 ($350) - with provenance, very much higher. I know the modern trend is to send emails with photos - however, it is so easy to overlook them. I suggest you either print off on your computer - or, have a photo enlargement. Using wording from this thread - give different opinions and ask for their help and in-put. They will probably take a little time to answer, so be patient. Meanwhile, hold-on to the badge (unless you want to sell it to me.....) THE VICTORIA AND ALBERT MUSEUM KENSINGTON LONDON U.K. I would leave the Bombay Museum for the present - they are not the easiest to deal with - unleass you know someone personally. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter monahan Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 This is the campaign medal for the punitive expedition in 1900. Please give the man's details from around the rim and we can check on him. There is a Bar - rare - 'Defence of Legations' and that is one of the highest value medals you can find. According to Major L.L. Gordon's "British Battles and Medals, one of the standard references for British campaign medals, there are 3 possible bars: Taku Forts; Defence of Legations; and Relief of Pekin. The Defence of Legation bar was issued to 3 officers and 389 other ranks (British Army). There were a large number of Indian units, both infantry and cavalry who earned the medal and literally thousands of medals were issued to Royal Navy crews. Hope this helps a little. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulan Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Hello peter monahan and Mervyn Mitton, thanks for the answer - so if I do understand correctly their were bars handed out for the individual occasions or engagements, such as the German bars e.g. Taku Forts. But only one typ of medal? The Persons name is T. Rice - please see attachment Regards Ulan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 As Peter says, there were three bars that could be awarded to this medal - however, it could also be awarded without a bar, if they didn't take part in any of them. He was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery and the medal is worth approx. £200 ($320). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garth Thompson Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 Hi - Garth. I'm so sorry I forgot to give you an address to enquire about your badge. I think it is well worth the effort and if it can be traced or, verified to an official position , then it will be worth a lot of money. Without any research and in present condition, I would value it at about £250 ($350) - with provenance, very much higher. I know the modern trend is to send emails with photos - however, it is so easy to overlook them. I suggest you either print off on your computer - or, have a photo enlargement. Using wording from this thread - give different opinions and ask for their help and in-put. They will probably take a little time to answer, so be patient. Meanwhile, hold-on to the badge (unless you want to sell it to me.....) THE VICTORIA AND ALBERT MUSEUM KENSINGTON LONDON U.K. I would leave the Bombay Museum for the present - they are not the easiest to deal with - unleass you know someone personally. Mervyn Mervyn, I think I've a pretty good ID on the piece now. As I was trawling Ebay today I found this id'd as a Masonic jewel. It certainly has all the characteristics of my badge and is the same size. I'm betting I have some sort of masonic jewel. Thank you for all you thoughts on my piece. Luckey for you Ididn't take your 250 quid offer. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garth Thompson Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 Here is another currently on ebay very much like my badge but with a different center piece. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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