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Phil, don't worry about it. We've all been there and learnt from others. Nice to hear you're concentrating on shield's and I'm sure like myself, Tim would always help with advice. I wouldn't get to hung up on the 'hard to get' backing cloths...most are contentious IMO... certainly from where you got your Panzer backed Krim from, just to many mint/hard to find shields for my liking.

I agree with Tim on the Narvik...a well known copy often referred to as the small '4' (a fake that I got caught out on when I first started). There's an excellent thread on the Narvik shield on this forum which is well worth a look at.

Apart from that you've got some nice shield's and the Demjansk is a beauty....I collect the docs as well but mainly try and concentrate on the shield's but always on the lookout for award docs especially Narvik docs.

Below a good Panzer backed Krim(IMO).

all the best...Peter

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Thanks Peter for those words of advice and yes Tim and I have had a nice little chat on a PM so I am now a bit more up to speed on the current situation. Thats a very nice Krim and I think I will take your advice in regards to not concerning myself with colored backing cloths as that seems a recipe for disaster when you are just starting out. As I said I have Webers reference book on the Krim's and you guys to confer with so I think I will just settle back and buy a few Krim's and Kuban's as the funds dictate. As I have already said to Tim I will prior to purchasing in the future send you guys a PM seeking opinions as I am sure this forum (and this is not a criticism) frowns on people posting intended purchases prior to buying. Take care and all the best for the new year to you both and everyone else for that matter.

Phil

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Phil,

It should never be a problem asking for opinions on any item prior to purchasing, that's one of the benefits of belonging to a forum IMO. It's when the person asking never seems to even try to learn or research items on their own, or my pet peeve, ask the continual "What's this? Is it real? What's it worth" type questions only to turn around and make a quick buck. I have no time for those guys and usually ignore the threads entirely.

A suggestion, if asking questions or requesting authentication on items currently for sale by a dealer; Leave their name out of it completely. IF you stumble across something that is genuine and rather a good deal, it might not be there when you go back to tell them you want it. This hobby can get cut-throat at times. On the other side of the coin, if the dealer sees his wares being discussed and most of the time the items are given the thumbs down, you could find yourself "out" with that dealer completely, permanently. It's a business to them pure and simple.

Additionally, there are good dealers, bad dealers, and sometimes great dealers, but they all sell "questionable" items from time to time. Nobody gets it right--all the time. Some of these guys have a following and some have their protestors and mentioning the dealer's name can sometimes skew opinions on the items in question. Now, some sell these items not knowing, while others know fully well what they are doing. It all comes down to the buyer doing the research and asking questions first. Bottom line; the item should sell on it's own merits and not the story, the sales write-ups, or dealer's reputation.

I hope you can still get your money back on the those two shields.

Best of luck and welcome to shield collecting! :beer:

Tim

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Below a good Panzer backed Krim(IMO).

I don't know about that shield Peter; I think you should send it to me for "closer inspection" :P:beer:

Tim

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Below a good Panzer backed Krim(IMO).

I don't know about that shield Peter; I think you should send it to me for "closer inspection" :P:beer:

Tim

I knew I was gonna get some Flak for that statement..:whistle:....always worth a try though:P

KR..Peter

Edited by Peter Baillie

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No Peter,

Actually, I love that shield and was hoping :whistle: you might fall "victim" to my request! :cheers:

Actually, I would count on that one being more 100% completely original than the JFS that I have with Panzer backing. The back cloth on mine sure looks original and there are spots where the cloth and shield appear to have been together for quite sometime, the backing is however, not what I would expect to see on a JFS shield.

I would rarely question your items based on past experience with you and your pieces. :beer:

Tim

Edited by Tim B

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No Peter,

Actually, I love that shield and was hoping :whistle: you might fall "victim" to my request! :cheers:

Actually, I would count on that one being more 100% completely original than the JFS that I have with Panzer backing. The back cloth on mine sure looks original and there are spots where the cloth and shield appear to have been together for quite sometime, the backing is however, not what I would expect to see on a JFS shield.

I would rarely question your items based on past experience with you and your pieces. :beer:

Tim

Hi Tim...well, I'm always open to a trade and would have no problem letting this one go to a fellow shield collector.

Peter

Edited by Peter Baillie

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Hi guys,

Just a bit further with this thread. After much searching through WAF I come across a thread saying the Krim shield I have posted with the dealers logo on it is identical to one which is called a T Rex or flat chested Krim. Is this correct or are my eyes playing tricks on me. I dont doubt the backing and paper are supplemented but I am trying to establish 100% if that shield itself is ok. If it is then I have two of them as the other shield posted with the group of four is identical except it is on heer cloth with the remains of black paper backing. The detail on the heer one is better than the one on the repro black backing but I put this down to the die wearing out but in essence they are one and the same. I have also gone over every shield listed in Webers book and whilst a few have similar features this shield does not feature there. Tim I think you know Weber or have spoken to him do you know why this shield is not in his book? Just trying to nail down a few loose ends that is all. Thanks guys.

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Hi Phil,

Happy New Year!!

On the Krim in question, and I believe the WAF thread you're referencing is one that I made those comments to; it is in my opinion, that the shield is original. I think, as stated in the WAF thread, that most collectors feel this style is genuine however, I understood at one point in time that there were collectors in Russia that questioned the validity of this particular style. I do not have any amplifying information why they felt this way.

I have seen several over the last few years and as stated earlier in this post, appear to have either a black or lime green paper backing. Ones that have different backing are always questioned as possibly having the back cloth replaced. Interestingly, most of the examples I have seen of this style, save only a couple, have slightly softer details and/or corroded high points.

As far as this "type" of shield not being shown in Weber's book on Krim Shields, I don't have that answer. I only have his original (1st) book and understand he has a more in-dept revision, so I can only reference the 1st version. You might try asking him as he is a member at WAF. Could be, he didn't have an example by this maker when initially publishing his book as we see other varieties out there (like Maedicke) that are also not shown.

Hope that helps!

Tim

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Happy New Year to you as well Tim and thanks for that reply. Yes it does answer a couple of questions and you actually jumped ahead of me as I was going to ask about that Maedicke. Im not sure which issue of Webers book I have (it is hard backed and just over 140 pages. I do believe it is available now in English but at quite an expense. Even though I have the German version I can generally work out a few things and it is quite good as I have already identified several fakes for sale on a couple of respected dealers web sites so in essence the book is worth every cent. This year I intend trying to build up a good collection of Krims and Krim award documents with maybe the odd Kuban thrown in as this is my favourite shield. After searching a few web sites of late I have noticed there are quite a few T Rex type Krims about...they actually seem to be the most widespread at the moment. I have no doubt they are the real McCoy although if that Panzer backed Krim was my first and only example of this type then I would maybe think otherwise due to its rather new appearance but my other Heer backed one shows all the wear and tear of one that has been on a uniform.

Take care my friend and I will post new additions as I get them.

Phil

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Hi Phil,

Getting ready to turn in here and wanted to say, if you ever have doubts or just questions on an item, feel free to ask Peter or I and we will be more than happy to assist as much as possible. I'm sure Chris will as well and know he used to be very knowledgeable on Cholm shields for starters.

You have a more current version of Weber's book, as mine is a small paperback, so not sure how much "new" information is presented in the version you have. Take your time and get them as they become available and you can afford them. No sense in rushing it as the conditions sometimes can vary greatly. Hold out for the "one" you really want to have.

That Maedicke was a lucky shot for me as they are hard to find and almost impossible to find in that condition.

Good hunting!

Tim

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Playing and just an update to the collection group shot! :cheers:

Tim

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Hell of a nice collection there Tim...one day I hope to emulate. Thanks for sharing the picture

:cheers:

Phil

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My latest buy....the type I believe the common Zinc fake is based on.

Peter

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Hi guys!

Thanks for the compliments Phil, no worries, you'll catch up fast enough I'm sure.

Peter, that's a great looking Demjansk. I see another one for sale with the paper backing still on but, they aren't giving it away for sure. :rolleyes: I still need and want one of these but not at that price.

Just got confirmation that this one is coming my way. I will probably start another "detail in-depth" thread on these and the "supposed" connection to Orth shields and see what develops. I don't really see it and hopefully some light will come out of that thread.

Cheers you two! :beer:

Tim

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Really nice Krim that Tim and I look forward to your comments concerning the Orth connection...I too find it a bit unrealistic but we will see.

Love the Demjansk Peter....really nice one. As I said to Tim I was going to spend this year attempting to put together a well represented collection of Krim Shields and related documents etc. Next year maybe I will search out treasures like that Demjansk. Nice find.

:beer:

Phil

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Hi Phil,

Well I did get the shield in a couple of days ago and like it a lot. I do see some details that are the same as Orth, some close and some not even, so I'm still comparing. I'll start a new thread on it in a day or two. I remain skeptical though and may have to post it over at WAF and see what Pascal will allude to that maybe we are missing.

Tim

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No problems. I have yet to try and translate that section of Webers book so until I do that I have no idea as to why he thinks it is an Orth but I guess he must have a good reason. Funny thing I saw that shield when he updated his site and thought that's a good one. Didnt have the funds though so well done you..a nice purchase that. If you dont mind me asking what does he slug you for cost of mail? You live in the states right? Just interested because he is very expensive when it comes to mail costs. Will wait to see the thread and I might pop over to WAF for a look see..generally do.

Phil

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No problems. I have yet to try and translate that section of Webers book so until I do that I have no idea as to why he thinks it is an Orth but I guess he must have a good reason. Funny thing I saw that shield when he updated his site and thought that's a good one. Didnt have the funds though so well done you..a nice purchase that. If you dont mind me asking what does he slug you for cost of mail? You live in the states right? Just interested because he is very expensive when it comes to mail costs. Will wait to see the thread and I might pop over to WAF for a look see..generally do.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Obviously I don't have Weber's current reference but, was unaware he mentions this Orth connection as well in regards to this "unknown" shield. I remember Pascal once commenting that he thought there was a connection but, didn't elaborate. I know there is some contentions between the two on where they arrive at their facts and speculation and have heard arguments about one taking information from the other and claiming it as his own. I stay out of it for the most part but, had to step in when the Maedicke issue came up over at WAF. I personally think these "super" books and their authors are forgetting their roots and purposes of the forums in place of fame and fortune, but that's my opinion.

Winkler charges 20 Euros flat fee for FedEx and I usually get the item in four days tops (Germany to Washington State), so it's expensive but, its fast and reliable and honestly, most other dealers normally charge the same for Deutches Post and it takes 3 weeks.

Tim :cheers:

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Hmmmm..charges me 30Euros (over $50 Aud) and it comes normal bloody registered mail. It has to be good for me to offer him my business.:angry:

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the Krims from my collection, part of the collection-the one that hand:blush:

Magnetic Krim by Deumer

Edited by tiff

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