Ed can you explain please

[notned]

Calling Prof. Ed Haynes....

Ed, i got these medals today. They are Genuine examples, that i am sure of...

BUT they are ALL unamed...not erased, as the rims are perfect....and all from the same source...he had no other info...nothing! said they were his late stepfathers...and had no idea where he got them from..

All swivel on the suspender bar....and are silver...not cupro nickel

The ribbons, while a bit Tatty, are Original.

The Queens South africa has the following bars

Belfast

Diamond Hill

Wittebergen

Paardeberg

Relief of Kimberly

It is the original issue with the hand of Brittania pointing to the 'R' and has the 'Ghost' 1899-1900

The IGS is an Edward VII wi the clasp North West Frontier 1908

I am happy that they can be collection fillers...

But i would love to know whats behind the fact that they are not named...

Also what is their approximate worth as unamed? as i want to check that i did not pay too much for them...

Thanks for your help!

Cheers

Paul

Edited May 30, 2006 by notned

[Ed_Haynes]

An interesting group, to be sure, and quite plausible. Such things do occasionally surface, but are not easy to explain. My guess -- and it is no more than that -- is that this was a duplicate wearing group, purchased at cost from the mint.

Value? I'm not much good at this. Unnamed state will detract substantially, though if there is an asserted provenance that will help, but only a little. I'd think in terms of 70% or 75% of the Medals Yearbook value. As I am away from my sources now, sorry I can't look them up. Maybe someone else could.

[Michael Johnson]

I'm away from my sources as well, but that combination says "Northumberland Fusiliers" to me.

Any name for the stepfather? It could help if it matches someone on the medal rolls.

I'd keep them as a group, even if they aren't named.

Correct order should be Queen's Sudan, Queen's South Africa, King's South Africa, India General Service Medal 1908, Khedive's Sudan.

Edited May 30, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[notned]

Hello Gents,

thankyou for taking the time to reply.

This information is most helpful.

I would go with the Wearers copies scenario...makes perfect sense.

I am working with the seller to find out who they may have been awarded to.

The seller seems to remember one other medal and assures me that once he finds it..he will let me know first. ( makes me wonder like hell...what this last one is... hopefully a Gallantry decoration )

Michael, you say Northumberland Fusiliers...Why?

And yes i will keep them as a group... and in the correct order..

thanks again!

Cheers

Paul

PS: will still be wanting an approximate worth please...

[Michael Johnson]

Michael, you say Northumberland Fusiliers...Why?

Well, both the Northumberland Fusiliers and the Warwickshire Regiment served in the Sudan and the Northwest Frontier 1908. That QSA bar combination is not given in Gordon for either regiment, although the Warwicks are listed for Belfast. But if he was in a Mounted Infantry company he could have a very different combination.

[notned]

Hi Michael,

With the combination of Battle bars on the QSM, what regiments are we possibly looking at...notwithstanding the other Sudan medals...and is there any possibility that there would be a soldier who would wear this combination of medals

I would really love to know if this combination is possible...because if it is...then it stays together as a mans duplicate set fresh from the mint.

You know...the more and more i look at these medals...i am convincing myself that they have been erased...

and who-ever did the reasing...did a darn good job!

Is there anyway i could possibly search and find any info on the troop movements in South Africa...to try and suss out what regiments were at these 5 battles...

Cheers

Paul

[Michael Johnson]

Hi Michael,

With the combination of Battle bars on the QSM, what regiments are we possibly looking at...notwithstanding the other Sudan medals...and is there any possibility that there would be a soldier who would wear this combination of medals

I would really love to know if this combination is possible...because if it is...then it stays together as a mans duplicate set fresh from the mint.

You know...the more and more i look at these medals...i am convincing myself that they have been erased...

and who-ever did the reasing...did a darn good job!

Is there anyway i could possibly search and find any info on the troop movements in South Africa...to try and suss out what regiments were at these 5 battles...

Cheers

Paul

When a medal is impressed, the areas behind each letter have a denser metal. I've read that it is possible to x-ray the medal rim and you get a ghost image of the naming. I've never tried this myself.

The same unfortunately doesn't hold for engraved medals.

It just occurred to me that the Seaforths were also in those campaigns, and they were at Paardeburg. On the other hand they also qualified for the India General Service 1895, "Relief of Chitral", which could be the missing medal. But they aren't listed in Gordon for some of the other clasps. In fact that combination doesn't seem to match any of the infantry units that were in the Sudan and NWF 1908.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[notned]

So , there is no possibility that these are a group to an Infantry soldier then?

Gordons? are you referring to the Gordon Highlanders ?or a medal reference book?

I would like to try this Ghosting...it sounds like thats what i need to do to find out where and why.

As the more i scrutinise these medals i see ( or i think that i see!) some instance of naming.

How would i go about this? an x-ray clinic perhaps??

These are a Beautiful set of medals and have been lovingly polished.... i really would love to get to the bottom of this mystery and suss out whom and where....

One thing i am certain of...well..i am led to believe by my close scrutiny.....is that the ribbons are hand sewn at the same length..so that all the medals line up if mounted on a small brass bar... or laid side by side...

the bottoms of all the medals line up...

so please help me with the value...i have Insurance to keep up to date. Thankyou.

regards

Paul

[Michael Johnson]

So , there is no possibility that these are a group to an Infantry soldier then?

Gordons? are you referring to the Gordon Highlanders ?or a medal reference book?

I would like to try this Ghosting...it sounds like thats what i need to do to find out where and why.

As the more i scrutinise these medals i see ( or i think that i see!) some instance of naming.

How would i go about this? an x-ray clinic perhaps??

These are a Beautiful set of medals and have been lovingly polished.... i really would love to get to the bottom of this mystery and suss out whom and where....

One thing i am certain of...well..i am led to believe by my close scrutiny.....is that the ribbons are hand sewn at the same length..so that all the medals line up if mounted on a small brass bar... or laid side by side...

the bottoms of all the medals line up...

so please help me with the value...i have Insurance to keep up to date. Thankyou.

regards

Paul

"British Battles and Medals" Maj. L.L. Gordon, copyright now owned by Spinks.

No, I think this combination is most likely infantry, (Nothumberland Fusiliers, Warwickshire, or Seaforths) given the units that served on the NWF in 1908, and those that were at Khartoum.

A couple of things to bear in mind, based on my experience with "replacement" groups.

1. There are two reasons for erased naming: the man or his family didn't want it known that the medals were being sold OR the replacement group was assembled from various sources (and names). Sometimes the man would have them all named (usually, but not always, engraved).

2. A replacement group may or may not exactly match the recipients entitlement. Two groups I used to own come to mind.

The first was and IGS 1854 (Hazara 1891) IGS 1895 (Relief of Chitral) QSA (6 bars) KSA, WWI pair to 75th Can. Inf. All except the last two were impressed, which is not correct for the IGS issues, and the style was not offical for the South Africas. Nevertheless, when I got his papers they were the correct entitlement.

The second was a Queen's Sudan, QSA, KSA, 1914-15 trio, Khedive's Sudan. He was Guards on the Sudans, AOC on the South Africas, and 5th Can. Inf. on the trio, where he had reached commissoned rank. When the papers arrived he was not entitled to the Sudans (although he had been in the Guards), and he was only entitled to a Cape Colony on the QSA. Yet the dealer told me that the regimental history had a photo showing him wearing these medals.

Given the combinations of bars possible on the QSA, it is possible that not all the bars are correct for his entitlement, but then again it is possible that they are. And "regimental entitlement" is not the same as personal entitlement. So just because the Blankshires weren't there doesn't mean that Pte. Bloggs wasn't either.

I would pursue trying to recover the naming. You can also try letting at least the rims tarnish, as sometimes you can get a ghost image of some of the lettering.

Pursue your source. Maybe the stepfather's name will give some clue.

As to valuation, it is a hard call. Purists wouldn't touch them, but given the incrasing scarcity of Victorian material, they are still quite valuable. Probably 75% of the face value would not be far off the mark.

[notned]

Michael,

Thankyou so much for taking the time to reply again. Much appreciated indeed!

I am starting to fall in love with these early Victorian and Edward VII medals...so much history and they are so fine...not like the crap they dish out these days...

So this man could be an Infantryman either from The Northumberland Fusiliers, Seaforths or Warwickshire regiments.

My quest for Information on these regiments commences this day forth!

I agree with your comments on the possibilities of the name erasing reasons, what strikes me as unusual with this barbaric practice...is why bother? the medals are not worth nearly as much as they would be if the naming was left there, and if they wanted the silver intrinsic value...these medals would have headed for the melting pot aeons ago...

How can i accellerate the tarnishing? i have studied these medals with a magnifying glass under all types of light...and can only see traces of letters, parts and only the one part on some of the medals...

I am really busting at the seams to find out about this man...who he was and where he fought etc....

As for the 'Stepfather' i think that he was not the original recipient...maybe his father or Grandfather...i will go and see the man i bought them off soon and ask him if he has found the other medal and asked his family about these medals, as i asked him too...

wish me luck!

Kind regards

Paul

So for the face value, would i be safe in saying 50 Quid per medal? i have no real idea of the values of these medals and my yearbook is from 1996...

[Michael Johnson]

I agree with your comments on the possibilities of the name erasing reasons, what strikes me as unusual with this barbaric practice...is why bother? the medals are not worth nearly as much as they would be if the naming was left there, and if they wanted the silver intrinsic value...these medals would have headed for the melting pot aeons ago...

Several reasons. It was a service offence to sell your medals. I'm not sure whether this applied to reservists or not. I do know that there are a lot of groups with First War medals and renamed "colonial" medals - once they were recalled to the Colours in 1914 they were expected to have all their medals.

And otherwise - pride. These men didn't want to sell their medals, they needed the money. See Kipling's poem Back to the Army Again

How can i accellerate the tarnishing? i have studied these medals with a magnifying glass under all types of light...and can only see traces of letters, parts and only the one part on some of the medals...

I wouldn't try, just let them go gradually. If you use gas for cooking you might leave them near the stove(the sulfur tarnishes silver). Turn the medals in different directions in differing lights. Get a good magnifying glass.

So for the face value, would i be safe in saying 50 Quid per medal? i have no real idea of the values of these medals and my yearbook is from 1996...

Erased or renamed medals still command a fair price. See Liverpool Medals. It's a hard call if a renamed is worth more than an erased. It depends what you want it for.