Tam o'Shanter...or what is it?

[MASteel]

Hello all,

I've a change to buy this but seek for an advice from the wiser collectors.

Seller says it's a Tam o'Shanter and sure looks like a one, at least for a newbie like myself!

Year stamp can not be read.

Does it have any change?

Any indication about the manufacturing era?

Here are pics...

Thanks,

Miikka

Edited May 14, 2010 by MASteel

[MASteel]

...2nd pic

[MASteel]

3rd

[MASteel]

...and the last. No other pics available, WD stamps digit/letter for the year is non-readable.

[William1]

Miikka

It's a WW1 Tam o shanter. Buy it!

Regards,

W.

[MASteel]

Miikka

It's a WW1 Tam o shanter. Buy it!

Regards,

W.

Thanks for the tip & info!

For the educational purposes, what are the "give aways" to date this to WW1?

Thanks,

Miikka

[William1]

The big giveaway is the four adjustment eyelets and the piece of puttee tape securing them. The lining material is also different from WW2 but that is not so obvious unless you have handled both types. British (or should I say Scottish) WW1 tam o shanters used to be cheap and easy to find but now make at least £200, and this looks quite a good one. I hope the seller still has it! Let us know how you get on.

[William1]

That white marking is not the date stamp, but the inspector's mark. It is in the correct configuration for WW1, ie. number over W(arrow)D over letter. Don't worry about the lack of a date as they were usually dated with a paper label, which is invariably missing and is not a problem as any collector will accept this as WW1. 6 5/8 is the size, and I don't know what the W in a circle is but it doesn't worry me.

[MASteel]

Thank you William for the help, I'm very grateful! It's always a great pleasure to learn something new about our hobby, especially when a newbie in this area (British/Scottish/Commonwealth) military like myself!

One dealer/collector in UK already told me that this could be from the 1950's For his defense, he's involved with WW2 era stuff.

I must say that British/Commonwealth uniforms/headgear are fascinating, especially due regimental level dress code differences! I think I'll dig deeper into this...can't help it!

I already sent a message to the seller that I'll take it... I hope he still had it!

Will keep you posted !

Thanks again,

Miikka

[MASteel]

I'm very pleased to tell that pictured Tam arrived today in my mailbox !

It's in great shape. There are traces of a cap badge, not from one that would have been punctured through the fabric but something has been sewed on it (line of needle holes + pieces of thread can be seen inside). Most likely a piece of tartan?

Could anyone advice from where to look a cap badge w/tartan backing that would be a match to this Tam? Only cap badge with tartan backing that I've seen is sold here http://www.wdmilitar...ph=12983&phqu=2

But I think badge is not from WW1 era? And since the cloth is worn on edges on that one I think it would be quite difficult to sew into this Tam and it would not match the wear on the Tam.

Any advice from where to look?

There is a seller at ebay that is listing pieces of tartan (for cap badges) for sale, says that those are coming from original regimental garments and sales prices are going for restoration of...hmmm...can't remember what was the target but it was good anyway.

With rgds & thanks,

Miikka

Edited June 3, 2010 by MASteel

[fallschirmjager]

Mikka

lots of Scottish regiments had tartan backing, the one in your picture is the Gordon Highlanders, if buying the (any regiment), badge make sure you get one that is for the period of the cap i.e. WW1.

Mike

[MASteel]

Thx Mike,

Yes, I've learnt that many Scottish regiments had/has tartan backing on their cap badge and some even wore, if my memory serves me, only tartan w/o a badge?

Any advice where to look for WW1 period Scottish regimnt cap badge with tartan backing??

Cheers,

Miikka

Edited June 4, 2010 by MASteel

[fallschirmjager]

Thx Mike,

Yes, I've learnt that many Scottish regiments had/has tartan backing on their cap badge and some even wore, if my memory serves me, only tartan w/o a badge?

Any advice where to look for WW1 period Scottish regimnt cap badge with tartan backing??

Cheers,

Miikka

I dont think there is one particular place to go! You need to Google or Bing and find the various sellers best if you decide on what regiment you want first and this will make your searching easier! I'm sure some others on here will point you in the direction of reputable dealers!

p.s. I've found that Bing brings up different results to Google and this has allowed me to get items that if I had stuck to google would have missed!

Mike

[MASteel]

thx forthe tip, Bing is something new for me!

I wonder which, if any, Scottish regiment in WW1-era wore only piece of tartan on their Tam's? Cap badges of Scottish regiments seem to be quite big (heavy) and this cap does not have hole/s on it from a through punctured badge... I imagine that those big badges would need to be punctured through the cap's cloth too in order to look sharp/hold in place, not just through tartan which then had been sewn to the cap..?

-Miikka

[William1]

Hi Mikka

I'm pleased you got the Tam. I don't know much about badges so can't say what was sewn onto it. Take your time to find out what badge would have been sewn on. If it turns out that it was used after WW1 (which is possible, even though it is 100% certainly of that period), you might just want to leave it as it is.

Now I am off to try out Bing!

Congratulations,

W.

[leigh kitchen]

According to Mike Chappell in "The British Soldier in the 20th Century Part 2, Field Service Head Dress 1902 to the present day", Wessex Publishing 1987, the practise of wearing tartan patches on Tam o Shanter's began in the 9th (Scottish) Division in 1915, battalions of the division being ordered to wear them in the manner of battle patches, cap badges were not to worn in the line.

Some units wore hackles alone (Chappell shows a khaki TOS unsadorned other than the red hackle & small button of The Black Watch, 1917), some such as the later amalgamated regiment The Royal Highland Fusiliers a hackle with tartan patch, but I don't know when that practise was started by whatever units.

I have a WWII TOS bearing a backing patch in REME colours & The REME cap badge, a backing patch of tartan or regiment or corps colours was worn by all regiments & corps forming part of 51st Highland Division. The badge is a plastic economy, I can't remember if its fittings pass through the fabric of the TOS or just through the backing patch, as there's very little weight to the badge.

Perhaps this TOS, if worn during WWI was'nt fitted at all with a badge, just the battle patch as worn in the line, or it was worn by a unit which tucked a hackle in at the top of the patch & did'nt wear a badge.

I'd be inclined to pin or very lightly tack a suitable tartan patch on & leave it at that rather than put on a badge that was never there or give the impression that a carefully sewn on patch is original or trying to appear that way.

[MASteel]

Thank you for the compliment & good information!

I might leave this as it is now but if I'd restore it with a tartan patch I'd do just as Leigh describes, with a tartan patch only lightly tacked from corners, for display purposes only. It displays nicely already as it is now.. but with a tartan patch it would look even better!

Leigh, are there somewhere (close up) pictures available from WW1 troopers wearing a TOS with a tartan battle patch? I think that was not the headgear they worn while taking studio potraits..

Thanks again,

Miikka

Edited June 7, 2010 by MASteel

[leigh kitchen]

Illustrations from the Mike Chappell book mentioned above

[leigh kitchen]

.

[leigh kitchen]

The legend to the above illustrations.

I suppose the natural tendency would be for a soldier to smarten up for a photograph with the addition of cap badge, but there must be photos that were taken with the patch worn without the additon of the badge.

Edited June 7, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[MASteel]

Thank you Leigh, thank you very much!

I need to buy that book, if still available!

-Miikka

[Hugh]

According to Mike Chappell in "The British Soldier in the 20th Century Part 2, Field Service Head Dress 1902 to the present day", Wessex Publishing 1987, the practise of wearing tartan patches on Tam o Shanter's began in the 9th (Scottish) Division in 1915, battalions of the division being ordered to wear them in the manner of battle patches, cap badges were not to worn in the line.

Some units wore hackles alone (Chappell shows a khaki TOS unsadorned other than the red hackle & small button of The Black Watch, 1917), some such as the later amalgamated regiment The Royal Highland Fusiliers a hackle with tartan patch, but I don't know when that practise was started by whatever units.

I have a WWII TOS bearing a backing patch in REME colours & The REME cap badge, a backing patch of tartan or regiment or corps colours was worn by all regiments & corps forming part of 51st Highland Division. The badge is a plastic economy, I can't remember if its fittings pass through the fabric of the TOS or just through the backing patch, as there's very little weight to the badge.

Perhaps this TOS, if worn during WWI was'nt fitted at all with a badge, just the battle patch as worn in the line, or it was worn by a unit which tucked a hackle in at the top of the patch & did'nt wear a badge.

I'd be inclined to pin or very lightly tack a suitable tartan patch on & leave it at that rather than put on a badge that was never there or give the impression that a carefully sewn on patch is original or trying to appear that way.

Speaking of hackles, many years ago, I was given a medium-green hackle and told that it was for the Seaforth Highlanders tam. I know that the hackle for the feather bonnet is white, but I wonder if the green might be for a light company. I think the hackle is from WW II or perhaps the Malayan Emergency period. Can anyone enlighten?

Thanks,

Hugh

Edited June 7, 2010 by Hugh

[leigh kitchen]

Not Seaforths that I can think of, but possibly Royal Irish Rangers, London Irish & a few others... (I thnk London Irish would be green rather than the lightsh blue St Patricks Green).

[Hugh]

Not Seaforths that I can think of, but possibly Royal Irish Rangers, London Irish & a few others... (I thnk London Irish would be green rather than the lightsh blue St Patricks Green).

Thanks, Leigh,

Let me ask a more general question: Is it not true that, at some point, many infantry battalions (perhaps all?) had a light company which wore green hackles? Seems to me I remember that they paraded at the right side of the line. Is it my imagination?

Hugh

[leigh kitchen]

Yes, Napoleonic period certainly, I can't remember when the system changed - white for grenadiers, green for ligh companies & white red for the battalion companies.