Biro

Does anybody know what the story with these pieces is? There's been a veritable plethora of these crosses that have appeared on the market in the last few months. Was there some type of "find"? Or what?

I recall when Detlev first started offering them some weeks ago, he mentioned aquiring a 'horde' direct from the jewellers family (presumably, the 'Hansen' family...)

Don't quote me on that, but it was something along those lines.

Here's the 'Hansen horde' in all its glory...

Marshall.

picture D Niemann.

Not all are marked 'Wagner' though.... which is something I suppose......

.... especially when you consider this is about as good as it gets for the chances of matching an obverse from a photo...

picture - druelle

[attachmentid=12349]

Still - it lends a little credence to the notion that prong attatchments are indeed a valid period attatchment method - not to mention mounted on individually worn EK2's!

Marshall

?????????????????

Oh wonderfull !!!!!!!!

Another one to add to my list of... er... 'variations'... each and every one of these a little different from the other -

Not all are marked 'Wagner' though.... which is something I suppose.

...Many thanks ofr the pics. Interesting to see one on a button... By chance, do you know what the price of the "button" one was?....

Sorry, no - but from memory, neither examples price was particularly 'over the top'.....

Marshall

Sheeesh Darrell - you're not mucking about are you!!

Fantastic collection and wonderfully displayed.

Congratulations

Marshall

......I've noticed on the few of these that I know of with some form of provenance that there is a certain characteristic to the maker mark....

Gordon

This is a very interesting observation regarding the crescent moon....

I have devoted an enormous amount of time to studying these Weiderholungsspangen after (apparently) being burnt by one a year or so ago, but I confess I lack most of the credentials required to come up with some sort of definitive statement that would convince any of you much more advanced collectors what should be considered original and what shouldn't.

After studying some 20 different images of examples of these rare pieces owned by friends and forum members alike, what I can offer is a substantial list of inconsistancies between pieces baring the Joh Wagner mark..... including different spacings, missing 'periods', and differing letter formations in the makers name, address, or silver content markings.

There is however one slightly alarming consistancy.... the obverse characteristics (and I've studied dates, crowns, W's, right down to the pebble formations) are IMO indisputably identical. I would point out that I don't have dimensions or weights on any of these pieces yet - they are photo based observations only.

I am very interested to read your comment about examples you have seen with 'some form of provenance' .... as these examples would constitute as close as we have to 'the definitive original'.

I guess at some point I'll post my studies and observations for you all to comment on, but in the meantime, are you able to confirm whether

(1) the example you have posted above is one of these particular provenanced pieces and also

(2) whether the example pictured in your book (which forms part of my study) could also be construed as having any form of provenance.... I have to say that from the picture, the crescent moon does not particularly appear to fit the 'straight line' scenario you offered above, but that could well be the picture.

thanks kindly

Marshall

(for Christophe.... these are the last two examples offered by Niemann but don't offer any clues unfortunately)

Marshal, I'm concerned about those... They don't look anything like the ones on eBay???

Brian

but.... but........ these must be OK - they came with a written COA for the FULL DAY from prolific ebay seller 'rare-meds-for-life' ......

Now - where's my socks......

Marshall

A quick rummage through the old sock drawer..... and you could find anything!!

Like I said... http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2181...indpost&p=18155

...but perhaps not as eloquently as Richard.

Marshall

Brian

I've been thinking about your dilemma since you started this thread.

When we see engraved pieces, there really is no telling if the engraving was made just after the piece was awarded (but still in war-time) or whether the recipient had it engraved after that war ended. Absolutely no way of telling if it was the 30's, 40's,  50's etc. Just look at that thread on the engraved 1914 EK1. If the font looks period, it seems it is acceptable even if the aging is not present.

You are the direct descendant and custodian of these awards and therefore I do not see a problem with you having these pieces engraved. I would not, however, have them laser engraved or engraved in any other modern way. I would have it done, by hand, by a skilled engraver in the correct font that matches the period of the award. I would also keep the engraving as small and as discreet as possible.

Good luck with your final decision for it surely is a tough decision to make.

Rich

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A friend of mine gave this bar to me.

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That is some friend you've got there Les!

Wonderful stuff!

Marshall

While Prospers picture and summation of the crudely filed ring is an eye opener, and probably indicative of - at the very least - a 'messed with' piece... the markings on the piece with the filed loop are impossible to see.

Unless there is something other than the placement of these spurious marks on the 1st example that Prosper can shed light on, then I have to agree with Dietrich in that I can't see anything that would specifically point this example back to 'London'... and hence our Unicorn...

Marshall

Brian

I have a vested interest!

It is my opinion that the thin core is not the only indication that yours is early!

Take for example, this matching EK1 on the right from another VERY famous recipient....

I know for a fact that his is early....

[attachmentid=10551]

because things are not quite as they seem!

[attachmentid=10552]

The piece next to yours above is unmarked and attributed to Kaiser Wilh. I.

We can clearly see by the matching crown and W on the 1914 and 1870 examples above and the VERY similar, slightly crude style of dates, that the dies for these two EK's from different era's came from the same hand.

To the best of my knowledge, S-W marked only the pin on the early 1914 examples like yours, never the cross itself.... so I beleive the original dies that spawned the Kaisers 1870 piece (and incidentally, my 1870 Godet marked piece which is identical to the Kaisers above...) were reworked in 1914 either by or for Sy & Wagner and that therefore the dies for your example started life in 1870, possibly originally as a Godet product.

It's a very nice piece either way... and yes, unmarked PLM winners piece over fancy maker marked piece anytime!!!

Marshall

Who recognizes the maker of this one?

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It's a Sy-Wagner.... and I would venture extremely early.

When was he awarded this and could I please see the pin and hinge set-up on this Brian?

The obverse detail of this piece is extremely interesting to me... I'll elaborate, but a reverse would be great...

Marshall

Then copy and paste each letter individually to spell---->  Шишькин ? Шишкин ? Cышкин ? Some such?

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Damn!! That boy is good.

I spent ages with the sh/s+h/ combos and gave up.

Here's your guy for everyone else.

Will have to dig it out and check . . . .

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Ed

GREAT looking bar !... it dosen't appear to be a stepped core from this enlargement. The oakleaves in particular look wonderfully 'fluid'....

It would be great to get a nice clear shot of the Obverse and Reverse from you when you get the chance. There are many prinzen 1813 ek2's floating around dealers at the moment.. this would help us all immeasurably.

regards

Marshall

It just gets better and better Brian... a great find!

Perhaps he also says to Hindenburg..."If I stand side on like this, my EK1 will look vaulted...."

Do you have the EK1... and is it?

Marshall

VERY nice example Micha - and definitely not CD.

There is a normal pinback version of this cross available here at the moment http://cgi.ebay.de/Eisernes-Kreuz-1-Klasse...1QQcmdZViewItem

but again only 800 marked, so no clue as to the maker.

There seems to be all manner of marks and gouges on your pin... I take it you've used a loupe to see that there is nothing interesting on the pin besides the 800 mark?

Well done - nice find..

Marshall

Really stunning pieces Gordon - both of them!!

Additional credit is due for not once using the term... 'minty' ....to describe either piece!!!!

Congratulations on both counts.

Marshall

Hero of the Soviet Union Gold Star (1st type) #842 awarded to Capt. Vasily Ivanovich Shishkin.

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My friend, that is spectacular!!!!!

Indeed, hard to top...

If you give me his name in cyrillic (hard to work out, that one) I'll post the picture I have of him.

A face to the name is always nice...

Marshall

I would sure try to research his award date prior to buying the cross though.

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Hi Claudio

There were 6 von Brandensteins awarded the PLM - three prior to 1914 so probably a little long in the tooth for EK1 action, not to mention order of award precedence..

and these three...

Lt. Col. Hermann von Brandenstein awarded on -- 27 Aug. 1917

Capt. Kurt von Brandenstein awarded on -- 26 Sept. 1918

Col. Otto Freiherr von Brandenstein awarded on -- 15 May 1918

I don't know what Frh. is short for - whether it's rank or name - but if it's name, then your best bet it appears is Otto...?

No idea when any may have been awarded the EK1 however.

Marshall

Brian

Wouldn't take my word for it huh?

I don't have any issue with this at all.

If it was anyone - ANYONE - else on the planet attempting to do this to a PLM, I would have a freakin fit.

But the way I look at it, the ONE SINGLE person who could justfiably do this to these items is you - you are the direct decendant and let's face it... it would only be a 'modern engraving' for perhaps the next 50 years.

In another 200 years, the fact that a (by then distant) decendant had these items engraved will merely cement the mystique these incredible family pieces already have.

Because - and only because - you are family, no harm done IMO...

Marshall

Allan/Gordon

The only time I've seen anything remotely resembling your one is this offering a while back by Kai Winkler.... they are VERY similar but you'll note the '3's are distinctly different.

It would be nice to know there is another variation around - but I don't know what to make of the subtle difference between yours and Winklers.... and if indeed Winklers is good.

It CERTAINLY looks the part...

Marshall

Bill, I have one exactly like it that I got from Detlev.  He attributed it to B. H. Mayer, and I tend to agree with him.

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And I tend to agree with George.

Wow!!!! THAT was an interesting life!!!  GREAT biographical information Marshall! 

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Yeah - it's a nice story isn't it. I love the fact that Akhmetzyanov lived to the ripe old age of 93 and one day I WILL attempt to contact that school.

Hell - I'll probably bequeath the star back to them if my kids proove to give not a rats ass about all this 'military' stuff.

At that resolution, not sure how much help they'll be - or how accurate a rendition...but then I have no idea of the amount of variation between different makers of these things.

Marshall