Biro

Hi Gents

First up - thanks to Les and Dave for sending me pics of their Prinzen pieces to use in this compilation... I only wish the circumstances for there use were different...

It's incredibly frustrating of course to have images of such varying quality... a discussion like this should be based on near forensic quality pics - and sadly, as is always the case, by the time I've edited, processed and downsized whatever images I've managed to get my hands on so they fit the size allowed by the site, much of the detail has blurred out - and 'peering' at a blurred image is NOT the type of science we need.

Nonetheless, I think you'll get the picture.....

Just so there's no ambiguity about WHICH prinzens exactly we are talking about, here's the best examples of the three versions of this PROLIFICALLY available Prinzen EK2 with stepped core and distinctive small crown that I have available.... one from each of the three wars...

Dave

I apologise if I appear to be coming across as some sort of Prinzen expert - I can assure you I'm not... but I have studied these reasonably in depth and have reason to beleive that Dave, yours is merely the 1813 'version' of a questionable prinzen doing the rounds. I can show you some key areas on your piece that will match both 1870 and 1914 versions of the same...

I will await Stogies word as to whether this is the appropriate thread to post these observations or not...

For starters, check the reverse of the 1870 prinzen in the ebay link I posted above...alternatively, if you or Les want to PM me, I will forward you my studies..

regards

Marshall

Josef..

Thanks for the info.

This is not one I own - just one I saw on Niemanns site a few weeks ago.

I don't see any hallmarks and no mention was made of such in Detlevs description..

Marshall

I confess to being a 'half moon virgin'... I've only just bought my first BB&Co pinback...

So I was interestyed to see this a while ago - I was under the impression medalbars with the Halbmond ribbon were 'hardware free'... but Detlev stated this was how it was made..

And isn't it mounted from the wrong star-tip??

Can someone tell me any more about this piece?

Marshall

Gentleman, very nice examples! Anybody else have any? marshall, you out there somewhere?

Yes - yes I am .... but I'm 'avoiding you' at the moment since you beat me to that glorious, absolutely stunning enameled Prinzengr??e frack bar!!!!.

If I hadn't been so greedy and tried to get the cased Roth & Neffe EK2 at the same time, maybe..just maybe it would be winging its way towards the sunny climes of NZ. Another day maybe...

I don't have any Prinzen pieces.... and I heartily agree with Chris's comments... a very grey area of the EK field.

Having said that - and for what it's worth - the prinzens posted here so far are well documented (Heyde/Bowen etc...) and ones I would be happy to have in my collection.

I suspect however that the prinzen EK2 posted by my friend Les above may be one of 'the ones' we discussed recently on WAF.... and I would personally be a little cautious about that one.

Here's YET ANOTHER example of why on ebay... an absolute rarity by anyones standards, but this auction will not top 400 euro for a set-up that should be worth closer to 1500 euro... this type is just too prolific for (my) comfort - this one is the 1870 version of Les's.. Prinzen/Oaks/WHS

Great thread..

Marshall

....I guess most of the civilian dressed vets found a need for them post nineteen nineteen. Make sense?........

Yes - a great deal of sense.

It's hard to picture a PLM winner at any wartime social occaision in anything other than full military dress - and therefore, as per regulation, wearing their full size PLM's.... the 20's being the most likely period of requirement for privately purchased mini's such as mine...

Incidentally - when did the Godet firm lose their crown jeweller status...?

Brian

Here are mine...

I can't add much to the dating process as neither have firm provenance... the 'no Koeng. = postwar' theory seems logical enough to me though, but that's only something I've read....

I do not think the PLM mini is wartime production...

Marshall

This is the beauty owned by Tony J and, true to his word, no sign of the 'M Hansen' name anywhere. Apart from that, a good match for the M Hansen marked piece posted by Micha.

An interesting twist to the "... was Hansen a manufacturer or a retailer " question that Gordon raised earlier in the thread

On this evidence, I vote retailer..

Marshall

Congratulations Micha!

A wonderful piece.

How vaulted is it.... - any chance of a sideview?

Marshall

Any non-com 1870 bar is a rare treasure as far as I'm concerned, so I can't imagine what it is that makes it even rarer...

I would certainly love to see a closer view of the EK2 at some point though Rick - once your question has been answered that is...

Marshall

...Berlin was not the center of THEIR world......

.....But obviously the place to go to get your photo taken!!

Wonderful pictures Andreas.

Marshall

.....this is almost like a peep show...

Then I can probably help you with a full frontal Joe!!

My friend Tony (Tiger1) sent me pictures of this 1870 and two other GC's a while ago. I have his permission to post them and can assure you he is more than willing to participate in the discussion with us....

Unless circumstances have changed, this particular GC is not in his collection... it belongs to a friend of his.

The information I have on the photo Tony kindly sent me estimates this 1870 GC to be copies made circa 1914-18... which of course in terms of the near identical maker mark, fits our picture (one way or another) very nicely!

I will let Tony fill you in on the specifics, as I do not have all the facts....

As an aside, I also have new pictures from Tony's impressive collection of an extremely interesting example of a Joh Wagner marked 1914 Weiderholungsspange.... interesting because despite having essentially the same looking obverse and reverse as the others in this thread, uniquely, Tony's does not appear to feature either the 'cats paw' or the 'circular swirl' I illustrated earlier on in this thread.

Neither, for that matter, does it have ANY silver stamp, crown, or moon. Again, I have Tony's permission to post pics of this piece, but I will wait for slightly more detailed photo's to arrive.

Work away.....!!

Marshall

....there will be 10 who think yes, yes, yes ?xxx, I don't care I've got to have one"....

And for some of us of course, if the 'supply' is there, we 'demand' TWO!!

Marshall

I get home tonight I'll unbolt my Ehrenbecher from the hood of my Dodge Ram and check out the bottom....

A novel storage idea Brian!!

Just a few more bits and pieces to add to this thread....

For what it's worth, I'm also an advocate of multiple maker mark stamping tools being a totally feasable and practical method of operation for a busy manufacturer like Wagner....

I couldn't find a good picture of the bottom of a WW1 Ehrenbecher anywhere, but as Stogieman pointed out, the WW2 Ehrenpokal also by Wagner features the same 'marking protocol' as the 1914 Weiderholungsspange.

[attachmentid=14302]

While the silver content marks etc... are much more styalised and not comparable to the 1914 WHS, it may be worth noting the consistancy in Wagners maker marks on these 4 randomly selected Goblets .... but that may be a product of the era.

You'll also note that top right below is an Honor Salver mark, the other three from later Plated Goblets...and again, I would be hard pressed to find any difference between the marks on the goblets and the mark on the Salver. A remarkable consistancy.

[attachmentid=14304]

And last, the only VERY rough pictures I could find of the much more relevant Prussian 25 yr Railway Badge.

There is more than a hint of similarity with the WHS marks here..... but it may be of interest to some that the bottom left Weiderholungsspange FAILED it's Detlev COA!

[attachmentid=14305]

regards

MARSHALL

Greetings comrade and velcome to our beautiful salon....

What will it be today..

Maybe just a little off the sides??

[attachmentid=14222]

How about a little something special for the laydeeez....?

[attachmentid=14223]

You have absolutely NO Roubles vatsoever??

Then take a seat over here comrade.....

[attachmentid=14224]

...Now, looking at the other letters, all of the maker marks appear to be made with the same stamp (or more than one virtually identical stamps with just a couple of different features. Since these would be hand made this is unlikely). Some are stamped deeper and some are weakly stamped, but there are many identical features are on all of the marks..... Dan Murphy

Hi Dan

I have no doubt that a flared base of the numerals & letters on a makers stamp, an inconsistancy between the depth of strikes and even the possibility of worn or broken maker mark stamps makes for a good arguement......

...but would that sufficiently explain the huge discrepancy in distance between 'BERLIN' & 'W' on these two examples.... not to mention TWO completely missing 'periods'.... same obverse remember...

IMO, unlikely...

[attachmentid=14221]

So I'm sorry I can't offer anyything more at this stage than what I have posted here... but I think it's at least reiterated that we have PLENTY more study to do..!!!!!

Cheers

Marshall

I expected that once I took a look at the reverse, it would become obvious whether flared or flat was the one to go for....

Naturally, that was far from the case........

A compilation of our collective maker marks - check the amazing variation in the formation of the Moons, the shape of the J's, the spacing between letters or words, and the missing 'periods' on some of these examples... etc... etc...

[attachmentid=14116]

So that was that - the obverses of all our pieces were identical... the crowns and dates matched, the little pearls used to replicate beading matched, right down to the pebbling. All identical.

But then I saw this...... A finishing oversight or the mark of a fake??

The ones on the left have NO 'flare' to the outer edge of the central cross, the ones on the right DO!!

[attachmentid=14117]

Here is a close up of the dots on the arm as discussed on the WAF. It has the "cats paw", the curved line etc.

Dan Murphy

Cats Paw? - Wow - I've coined a phrase!!

Just to elaborate a little on Dans posting, I'll offer up what I have discovered so far about the elusive 1914 WHS and give you guys all something to ponder...

To briefly explain, a while ago I started compiling images submitted by forum members both here and on WAF so I could study the detail of some of our collective examples and try and form some sort of opinion for myself. Was there an obvious footprint to a fake...?? Were there similarities or glaring differences in the various samples I collected..?? Hell, I even bought one off ebay for the princely sum of 300 Euro so I had another one in hand after my first one went back to the dealer.

I have a good dozen reasonable images of all your pieces.... yes...YOU.... and the first thing I should state is that as far as I am concerned, the obverse characteristics are identical. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I am 99.9% positive that each and every one of you have these features to the obverse of your pieces.

The infamous 'cats paw' and the distinctive 'curved line' pattern....

Go on - check 'em so we're all on the same page here...

[attachmentid=14112]

Yep, seen 'em before but still lovin 'em Marc. Wonderful stuff!

Marshall

...but done it is whether missing pieces or not.

After reading some exchanges between you and Stephen in another place, I was expecting to see your grandads full size PLM in there as well as the mini Brian.... or did I miss it?

I presume you have your good reasons for this - but I was looking forward to slightly more of a feature on von Etzel's award than is evident.

Still - your homepage speaks for itself really.

Marshall

If it's of any help, Friedlanders mark on their PLM's is capatilised.... 'FR'....

Marshall

OK, the name of the recipient of this 100% original period piece may help.

Leutnant (Ing) Hugo Seggermann, Leitender Ingenieur on U-862

heh heh.....

'Think further East...'

'A POW....'

Probably one clue too many...

Is it........ JAPANESE!!!

Marshall

Claudio

Christophe is correct - 'JHW' would be Werner (see Andreas's site for more...)

Marshall