Biro

It was mounted with a button at the back, I think it said Deschler.

Very nice Chris. Would have liked to see the button.

This one has a Godet button and is owned now (I think) by a member here...

Marshall

My Juncker Lazy 2

Marshall

I agree with all SPM's comments except his suspicion that the EK1 could possibly be a forgery.

The EK1 is a text book 'I Wagner' (obverse core and maker mark) with an 'alternative' - probably replaced - pin.

Below are three textbook issue Wagners with different pin assemblys - one very similar to the Lancelle set-up.

The centre one exhibits the pin we most expect to see on these rare Wagners. Consider also that the last I Wagner marked EK1 I saw sold (by Huesken) went for nearly 5000 euro on its own.

The only thing that stopped me from buying the Lancelle group months ago was the condition of the EK, which as SPM also pointed out, is poor.

Good luck in your decision.

Marshall

Hi Gents, I'm really in need of some expert input regarding this 1870 EK2. I would rather throw is open to comments from people more knowledgeable than me, than throw money away if it's a fake.

thanks in advance for your help!

Jason

Jason

It's very hard to make out the core detail from these pics, but the finish on your piece is all wrong - shiny black paint is not good criteria in an 1870 EK2. While it might not be an outright fake, at the very least it has been repainted.

What's more, whereas Alex's is a one-looker, your example will always require analysis and explanation. I choose not to include pieces in my collection that require ANY amount of persuasion and would encourage you to build a collection based on the same principals.

You will pick up a bone-fide example (like Alex's) for around 400 -600 euro. If you are looking for advice, I would firmly suggest you do that.

Marshall

Definately original, rare, and in great condition.

Agreed.

It is an absolute carbon copy of my set, except mine is tombak.

Get this while you can... they do not show up every day!

Marshall

Biro...I think the piece is much more like that shown on page 238, not 272.....STP...

Of course you are right - and if I had thought to ask Don whether it was hollow in the first place, I wouldn't have been quite so quick off the mark!

The hollow silver gilt are so seldom encountered, I was naturally stumped when I couldn't match the eagles to my own solid Friedlanders eagles... and of course now I know why and have advised Don.

The tailfeathers of these hollow pieces are FRIGHTENINGLY similar to the one labelled in Steves book as a fake. While I am certainly way off expert status, I am reasonably well researched on these - and I admit I was caught out here.

Good eye Steve for picking it up right off the bat... and congratulations Don.

Marshall

Not a hard one. The piece is good. It is a silver-gilt 1917-18 Wagner or Friedlander. What is the maker mark?

STP

I'm not sure I'd agree with you on that one Steve.

The eagles most resemble the 'fake' PLM in Prussian Blue (page 272) ... check the tail feathers.

It appears to have been refined somewhat, but it is the same one I am sure of it.

regards

Marshall

Hi Gordon.

I openly profess to know little about Oaks, but it appears to me as though the edge of the leaf above the one you refer to also shares the same feature - a broken reflection - midway through its outer edge.

But maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing?

Marshall

...If it's real, I'll be doing backflips!.....BrianH

Brian.

Relax.

Gymnastics will not be required.

There are no 'real' 1914 grand crosses floating around out there.

This one is also available with swaz.... http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1046...;hl=grand+cross

Marshall

....I'd love to see a picture of the other core variant....Joel

Joel

Here is my WILM with the variant core. There are definitely two WILM's - there may even be more.

Marshall

Congratulations - a nice looking cross.

As a matter of interest it was a humble WILM EK2 purchased for an ungodly sum on ebay that first generated my interest in collecting - and subsequently began my entire collecting career... although mine has a different core.

As a result, it is one of the few pieces in my collection that I will never sell.

Here is WILM's website address... http://www.mark-wilm.de

Marshall

edit

It's total coincidence I'm sure, but I have always thought Joe's fantastic 'onyx' cross bore more than a passing resemblance to this illustration in a 1939 Deumer catalogue.

And for the record, I am inclined to agree with Chris's extremely well thought out opinion about both the era (between the wars) and the nature of the cross (expensive private purchase piece rather than KW2 presentation piece).

Dosen't change the fact I'd have it in my collection in a heartbeat though!!

Marshall

Congratulations. The EK and the 25 yr oaks are very nice.

Here are two more with connected letters that are presumed genuine. The first attributable to Eduard Ritter von Schleich.

Joni -

The first one is a 1957 S&L so you would expect the letters 'u & r' to be connected...

Marshall

...Tim (or Marshall), for the edification of the readers, could you post a photo or two that I've sent you previously of the example with the connected letters? It's tangental to the thread, but it does show that not all examples with connected letters are obvious fakes.....Les

Here is the example Les is referring to above - I have seen many detailed pictures of this piece and there is no doubt it was made on Wagners dies..

Outstanding photo's fellas - particularly the chaplain!!

Sadly, this Bill Bryson look-a-like is the best I can muster...

but the detail on the damaged oaks is nice...

...and a similar cross showing the same spurious 'GODET' maker mark and dodgey hardware.

Godet used two cores on there 1870 EK1's..... this was not one of them!.

Marshall

I could be wrong, but I don';t like the look of that GODET mark on the reverse.

You're not wrong Gordon.

Aside from the core, the marking on the ebay Godet is incorrect. You can see the small but significant differences here...

I totally agree with Darrell - this is not a Deumer (either first or second class) and I'm pretty sure some further research (which I don't have time to do now) will revel this to be a known fake.

In fact from memory, it appears in Gordon's book in the fake section under the heading 'English fake'....

Sorry

Marshall

This is most definitely not a Wagner PLM...

...but neither is it the 'Spanish fake' as we currently know it.

Marshall

A fantastic display of Gallantry awards that makes me seriously consider expanding my collecting interests to include the Allied forces...

Well done countryman - well done!

Marshall

An outstanding result and an absolutely outstanding piece Claudio!!

Well done.

Marshall

Prosper

Your piece is not a match for the 1870 Wagner core and I would agree with you is much later...

Marshall

Marshal, although I agree with you very often, just because the I and J are both appearing and today a faker uses one versus the other doesn't negate the form having been originally used.....

I'll concede to that possibility Brian, but only because there is irrefutable proof (in the form of Goblets, 25yr Railway Badges & WHS) that a 'J Wagner' mark was indeed being used by the firm around the 1914 period and therefore could well have been in use earlier...

But is there proof that it was in use THAT much earlier than 1914??

I have yet to see what I consider to be one of the two or three genuine 1870 EK1 cores with a 'J Wagner' marked frame. The cores I personally have down as genuine to the period are without exception marked either I Wagner, Godet, Lauer, or not at all.

Take your own (Leo's) 1870 mounted EK2 for example... I beleive this piece below to be the first class version of that cross - e.g. it has a matching core - and I therefore trust it implicitly to be period 1870. I have never seen this rare version of the EK1 marked J Wagner, only ever I Wagner as you can see here...

Perhaps if someone can show me an original pre-1900 award/order/medal of any description that is marked with 'J Wagner' or 'Joh Wagner' I will have learnt something... but to the best of my knowledge only the letter 'W' was being used, as on the PLM, or perhaps 'WuS'...

Rod - don't despair mate.... noone REALLY knows ... it is of course all just personal hypothesis and conjecture that our wives aren't remotely interested in listening to....

.... so that's why we come here!

Marshall