Scowen

Do you feel Roberts Meisterzeichen badge may have been a day badge (tinnie) for the event?

--dj--Joe

I really do not know what to think of it Joe. Part of me says "yes a tinnie", but the word "Meisterzeichen" makes me wonder. It's construction would indicate a tinnie...... More research is needed I'm afraid.

Cheers

Don

Is it known if Steinhaur & Luck was the only manufacturer that produced a miniature?

--dj--Joe

Hi Joe,

I'm not sure, but so far I have only seen S&L marked ones.

Here's another full size that I am sure is a fake. I do not like the RS marked types, nor the AK or "B" in a circle, but that is just my opinion.

Cheers

Don

Hi Pete,

Sorry for my very late reply.

Yes the second one is indeed a tinnie, however the first is the Meister Class (gold with oakleaves) grade given out at the Bregenz Kreisschießen. As I'm sure you know by now, these were achievement badges & a minimum score had to be attained to qualify to receive one.

Thanks for showing it, I've known of the existence of this design but have never actually seen one. Very nice!

Thanks

Don

Very nice Alec. As far as I know, these are only found marked by Deschler..... Here's my stickpin version

it's very kind of you to say so Mike, thank you.

Maybe you would be kind enough to share some of your pieces with us?

Cheers

Don

Hi William,

Some nice pieces there, thanks for sharing them. Those WHW shooting pins are nice, I've seen a few different designs around over the years.

A nice Sängerbund Westmark pin as well. It looks like there are stil some traces left of the gold on the wreath. Here are my Sängerbund Westmark pins, the standard membership, plus the silver & gold honour versions.

Cheers

Don

Moved as requested....

Some more info has recently come to light. As the link to my original thread I posted above has dissolved, here is a link to the thread on another forum with the original pictures & new info.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95044

Cheers

Don

Don here is the reverse image. Would Meisterzeichen be the winner of the event or do you think that this would be given to attendees of the event and not participants? Have a nice weekend. Robert

Hi Robert,

I've no idea......... I've never seen this badge before, or seen the phrase "Meisterzeichen" used in this context. More research is required (just when I thought that I was getting to grips with these shooting badges as well ).

It's very interesing that Danner was the maker & not one of the usual suspects seen on these Tirol badges (Klammer, Pichl or Poellath).

Thanks for posting it Robert.

Cheers

Don

A very nice piece Robert & a new one for me. May we see the reverse please?

Cheers

Don

I wouldn't worry too much Joe. Try using natural light by a window rather than a flash, I find that works quite well, as long as it is not in direct sunlight. North facing or slightly over cast is better.

Robert.

Nice badge. The pin plate will be marked for Poellath, the only manufacture mark seen on this style.

Cheers

Don

Very nice Robert, & welcome back .

I hope that you do not mind but I have moved your pin to a topic of it's own as it is a different Christian group to the others.

I've often wondered myself why the Swastika is the other way round...

Thanks for posting.

Don

Hi again,

Thank you for posting the extra images. I'm sorry for not making myself clear earlier, the badges I was referring to were the two large badges with serial numbers.

Thank you also for giving the name you expected. Unfortuneately I cannot find that or anything similar in the records. So I suspect that your godfather obtained the badges from someone else. Maybe he knew the original owner, but he is not listed as receiving any badges in any of the the shoots, sorry.

Now to the actual badges & the discrepancy of the badge/Ehrenkarte number. Over the years that I have been researching these shoots & the lists of awardees of the badges, I have occasionally come across instances where the same badge number appear to have been issued to two different individuals. I've never been able to find out how the actual pieces were given to the people who received, them but I suspect that the shooter mearly took his score card to a window & once checked, a badge was taken out of a large box full & given to him & it's number recorded with the shooter's name. If this is the case, given the number of people probably queing for a badge, it would be easy to make a mistake & record the wrong number etc.

Until now I have never seen one of the actual Ehrenkarten involved with one of the errors. According to the lists badge #476 was unissued, however if we take a look at the numbers either side of this number we can see what has happened.

Badge #473 was given to an Anton Ritzl

#474 is listed for two people, Hans Eichenauer & Edwin Olinowetz...

#475 is listed as being given to Toni Pfister,

#476 is unissued

#477 is listed for Josef Blersch.

The fact that you have an Ehrenkarte #475 in the name of Edwin Olinowetz but badge #476 suggests to me that what happened is that a mistake was made while handing them out. Edwin could not have #474 because it was given to Hans Eichenauer, so was given #476. However in the confusion I imagine that Toni Pfister was given Ehrenkarte #476 but badge #475..... Only speculation on my part & without the other Ehrenkarten we will never know for sure.

Edwin Olinowetz recieved the 3 Year Gaumeisterschütze in 1944 after receiving a numbered Meisterschütze badge 3 years running (1942, 1943 & 1944). Again, what is interesting here is that the number for his 1943 badge is not recorded, there is simply a "?" in the space in the lists where the number should be. This shows that they knew that he received a badge but for some reason the number was not recorded. So I cannot say for sure that #2238 is definitely Edwin Olinowetz's but I can say that #2238 is not listed as being issued to anyone else so it is likely to be his.

Some background to the badges. To receive any badge a shooter had to attain a minimum score in a particular shoot, & depending on the score he would be given a badge in either bronze, silver, gold or gold with an oak leaf surround (like the two you have with Wehrmann on). There were three disciplines, Pistol, KK-Gewehr & Wehrmann, if a shooter attaind the gold with oakleaf grade badge in all three of these disciplines then he could have the large numbered Meisterschütze (which was originally gold coloured, but due to the zinc metal the colour is usually lost now). If the shooter received one of these Meisterschütze badges in three different years, then he qualified for one of the 3 year badges. The fourth time he was given a spange or clasp with "4 Jahre" on it to attach to the 3 year badge.

The Landesschießen events had been held in Innsbruck, Austria for many, many years before the National Socialists came to power in 1938 (& still continue to this day). They just took advantage of the events & turned it to their advantage.

I hope that this helps a to answer your questions a little, these particular pieces made it a little more complicated than usual. I'd be interested in seeing pix of the picture book you mention if you find it.

Cheers

Don

Joe & Mel, thank you for your posts & continued support of the forum. A nice piece there Joe.

Magicmissle,

Welcome to the forum & thank you for posting your badges. Your posting could help some questions that I have been mulling over for sometime. Before I get into a detailed answer to your post may I ask 2 things?

Firstly, please can you post images of the reverse of the 1943 Meisterschütze & 3 year badges? & secondly, what name were you expecting on the Ehrenkarte? (if you would rather not post the name on the thread, I can understand & in that case could you please PM it to me).

Thanks

Don

Personally I would be very reluctant to buy one of these without the full set of marks.

Redo are known to have continued making TR items after the end of the war so this could be one of those pieces.

Cheers

Don

Very nice, I think that I have an S&L somewhere as well.

Here is another that you may not have seen. It's the only one I've seen so far Assmann & Söhne...

Cheers

Don

Sorry, been away for a few days.

Firstly, by looking at the picture I can see that it does not conform to accepted originals.

Secondly I have since seen the picture of the reverse which you posted on the HJ forum. It should have a hollow back not solid.

You can't take COA as a guarantee of authenticity, only as a guarantee that the dealer wants you to believe it's authentic....

Cheers

Don

That's a sweet piece Pete. You don't often see them with the DRGM.

Cheers

Don

Most definitely NOT....

Cheers

Don

Gentlemen,

If you wish to sell or trade something, please post it on the sales section not here in the regular forums. I have removed the last couple of posts

Thanks

Don

It looks like one of these http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/48976-nsrkb-50-year/ but probably the 25 yr version rather than the 50 yr

And yes he look very much like Hopkins

Cheers

Don

While I'm here, this is the pre NS version.

It's certainly not a fantasy piece. It's the NS version of the membership badge for the Deutscher Werkmeister Verband, an organisation or union for works foremen.

I believe it was absorbed into the DAF quite soon after they came into power

Here's mine.

Cheers

Don

Indeed, a well known fantasy piece.

One good give away is the Ges.Gesch in a square box like that. With the exception of one very early party badge which had the Ges.Gesch in a single line sunken box, this has never been seen on any genuine Third Reich period badge & has appeared a lot on fake & fantasy pieces in the last few years.

Cheers

Don

My 50yr has a 5 on it. I've started a thread for them, hopefully some other members may have examples so we can see if there are any 6's out there.

Here's the thread.... http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/48976-nsrkb-50-year/

I don't recall seeing a 50yr with a 6, but I have seen a 25 with that number.

Cheers

Don