Scowen

2 hours ago, Lance O. Adams said:

Don et al,

Thanks for the information and comments.  VERY interesting details here.  I really had no idea.  Scowen has done a tremendous job with the research to get us here.  And I have certainly learned a lot.  So it looks as if my "set" is essentially a put together with mainly the horde pieces that were released and sold by dealers.  That's okay.  Two of the four as issues is quite good.  I have others that looking at the information here I am worried are reproductions.  Including several of the A. G. and Co. München marked pieces .....  Will take a group shot of these for review.  

 

While I have you Don ......  Any information on 3 Jahre number 26?  Was it awarded?

 

You are most welcome Lance. 

No, I'm afraid that #26 was not awarded either.  25 & 27 were, but not 26.....  I've often wondered how the serial numbered badges were dished out, as the numbers on the unissued badges seems to be quite random (except for the higher numbers which were obviously just "left over" after the event).  I've come to the conclusion that maybe they were just in boxes & were probably handed out randomly.  Some of the more important people seem to have managed to obtain the same serial number on their badges for each year, but generally it was quite random.

Yes Lance, feel free to post what you have & we will take a look at them.  Thankfully, this area of Third Reich collecting escaped the mass faking we see in other areas & fakes are fairly scarce.

Don

10 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

 I am confused (but getting used to it). If a 3 yr. Meister badge was awarded in 1943, for 41-43. I assume the 4 yr. clasp was given for 1944. Was a 5 yr. clasp envisioned for 1945 since there was a 6 yr. badge planned for 1946?

I also wonder what was the original thought of jumping by threes. 3, 6, 9 Yr's.

 

Just wondering,

--dj--Joe

Indeed.  A 4 Jahre clasp was issued to be attached to the 3 year Meister.  I believe, although to date I have not seen any physical evidence to support it, that clasps for 5, 7 & 8 years were planned.  Whether any were made I cannot say as I have never seen any.  However they are small & unless one realises what they were for they would be easily overlooked.

I think that it is also worth pointing out at this point that 1943 was not the only year that the 3 year badge was issued. Once a shooter had received a dated meister 3 times (not necessarily in three consecutive years) he or she would be entitled to the 3 year Meister.  So for instance, a marksman could have won Meisters in 1941 & 1942, but then not qualified for another until 1944, then the 3 year would have been given in 1944.

6 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

Still thinking. ---- I realize there was no shoot in 1945. I wonder at what point after 1944 the decision was made, since there are no unissued 1945 badges yet they were prepped for 1946 and 1949. 😶

 

--dj--Joe

No idea.  I suspect that the 3, 6 & 9's were all made at the point when the initial approval was given as they are multi construction.  The eagles are made of iron whereas the wreaths are not, so manufacturing would not have been simple. 

Here is a scan showing the 4 year clasp on the full size & lapel 3 year Gaumeister.  As you can imagine, the clasp for the lapel version is tiny.

Hi Lance & welcome to the forum.

Some nice pieces you have there, thank you for posting them.  You read correctly, all of the dated Meisterschütze badges were originally gold grade.  Some unscrupulous dealers repainted them gold, silver or bronze to make them easier to shift.  This originally started when the large number of badges that had been in storage were released onto the market post war.  As they are made of zinc, most if not all of the finish would have gone from the badges, so if they were repainted in different colours, then they could be sold quicker to collectors who were unaware of how they should be.

The 6 year Meister badges were part of the released pieces from the stores.  These were never issued as they had been made in preparation for issuing in 1946 (there are also 9 year badges made to be issued in 1949!!!). There's nothing like forward planning.....

1944 badge #2782 was unawarded.

1944 badge #1056 was awarded to Hans Wolf from Innsbruck.

1943 badge #2491 was also unawarded (the highest numbe badge awarded that year was 2380).

1943 badge #553 was awaded to Adolf Kunsek from Innsbruck.

The badges awarded to Hans & Adolf were the only Meisters issued to them, either they did not qualify for them in other years or they did not take part in the Landesschiessen for the other years.

Hope this is of some interest & I look forward to seeing what else you may have.

Don

I think I have an ausweis somewhere....  If I can find it I'll take a look.  I do have an RDF pin somewhere as well, quite boring compared to these.

Joe,

Sorry, no, nothing official.  Although I have noticed that the larger dealers have started to list some of the coloured & 3D pieces with ranks such as the blue version for Kreisverbandsleiter, blue 3D for Kreisamtsleiter & the black for Mitarbeiter der Landesverbandsleitung : Landeswart, Landesamtswart, Landeskassenwart, Landessippenwart etc....

However I don't know whether this is guess work or based on period evidence which I haven't seen.

Indeed there are Joe.  I haven't dusted off my Frau box yet to see if I have any others to post here....

Hi Joe,

These are quite controversial pieces these days. Quite a number of collectors believe them to be fantasy pieces while others believe them to be good.....

6 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

Don, you have the bronze, silver and gold.

Are the reverses all the same? Robert's example looked like period manufacture.

 

--dj--Joe

Yes Joe, the reverses are identical....  These are indeed strange beasts.

Very nice.  A good piece of research & interesting that the company still exists.

On 07/10/2022 at 03:06, --dj--Joe said:

could it be possible that Roberts Meisterzeichen badge From page 5 could be categorized as a Festabzeichen ?

 

--dj--Joe

I'm not sure what to call them Joe.  To be honest I'm not even convinced that they are not fantasy pieces..... 

The wording is not consistent with the period, I've seen the phrase Kreis-Schützen-Verband used on earlier pieces & on later ones, but not on pieces from this period.  And I've never seen the word Meisterzeichen on a badge from this period either.

Also the manufacturer is one not seen on Austrian shooting badges.  Having said that, the style of crimping on the reverse is correct for a Danner made badge 🤔.  So I think that the jury is still out with these pieces.

The definitley come in bronze, silver & gold, but I haven't seen a wreathed version yet....

Don

Very attractive designs, I too have never seen them.  Good luck with finding the last one...

Don

Nice...

On 26/08/2022 at 20:56, --dj--Joe said:

There is a gilt version of this badge isn't there?

 

--dj--Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry for my late reply, I had to wait until I had time to remove the double images in the thread caused by software updates & to look through my files to see if i had ever managed to obtain one of these pins....

Here after many years is my Aurich version, & as Matthew says there were indeed gold grades as shown my Mike's worn version at the top of the thread.  Another one that I have yet to track down....

Don

14 hours ago, Gefreiter otto said:

Today is my lucky day.

 

Two fellow forum members have helped me by sharing their knowledge.

 

Thank you very much Mr. GreyC  for your translation.

 

Thank you very much Mr. Scowen  for identifying that medal, I really appreciate it, it seems amazing to me.

 

In the world of the Collector there are Great people¡¡

You are welcome, I am just sorry that it took me so long to go through my files for you.

On 29/04/2022 at 19:00, Gefreiter otto said:

 

I have not been able to identify this badge in the form of a Rosette, I think it is red and the White circle

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

Sorry for taking so long to reply to this question, but I have many files to go through. 

I believe the badge is for one of the Marine Bunds, but I'm not totally sure which one.  Here is a picture from my files showing the badge in question.

Hope this helps a little

Don

Hi Rouflab,

Welcome to the forum.

Which ones do you mean, the Merten made pieces or the Paulman & Crone?

Thanks

Don

Hi,

I have seen this style pin plate used on badges made by Gustav Brehmer, Markneukirchen.  Although usually they have their name incorporated into the design of the plate as well, see the example below....

Cheers

Don

Very interesting.  I shall keep a look out for ones that you do not have.

Cheers

Don

Thought I'd reawaken this thread with this little piece that I recently come across, Kreisleitung Rostock, never seen one for this area before.

Cheers

Don

Very interesting!  Thank you once again.

Sorry for my late reply, I have not had much time over the holidays to get online.

Some wonderful items you have & the information is very interesting, thank you.

I believe that you wanted me to post my portrait photo here?

Some nice pieces you have gathered.  I'm looking forward to seeing more....
 

You may remember this old thread https://gmic.co.uk/topic/48301-reichsbund-deutscher-beamten/#entry446652

And here is my favourite piece...

Cheers

Don

It's a new one on me I'm afraid.

Hopefully someone else will have an answer.

Don

Also, for future reference, avoid badges with that shape pin retaining plate.  That style was never used during the period....

An interesting article, thank you for posting it.  I'm sure that there are still many items hidden away that have been forgotten.  I recently heard of a school that was doing renovations that found flags & other HJ/Studentbund items hidden for all these years.

For info.  The gold disc listed as "A medal belonging to the local office of the Nationalsozialistische Volkswohlfahrt" is actually a belt buckle.

Cheers

Don