Scowen

11 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

That is quite a nice picture. Thanks for the close up Don. I imagine period in wear images pertaining to Tirol badges are few and far between.

 

--dj--Joe

Thank you Gentlemen.  As rare as hens teeth as the saying goes.....

Here's one I've never shown anywhere before with an Allgemeines Gauabzeichen in wear.  Unfortunately I can't make out which year...

11 hours ago, Lance O. Adams said:

Great photo Don!  I'm a S/84/98 bayonet collector so loving the detail there as well.  

 

Here is another badge I found interesting.  Kufstein 1943 Kreis-Schiessen.  I believe in gold?  Brooks posted a very similar badge for 1942 back in 2008.  Backing made of pot metal or zinc, perhaps zamak?  Reverse is unmarked.  I worried a bit about this one but have been assured by several that it's 100% good.  

 

Apart from the shoddy soldering which I suspect indicates a replaced pin, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it....  It's a Gold with Oakleaves grade, or Kreismeister.  All of the Kreisschiessen came in four grades, bronze, silver, gold & the Kreismeister which was gold with oakleaves.....

Here is a scan of my set showing all four grades of the badge.

Don

On 29/01/2023 at 18:05, --dj--Joe said:

 

To bad TerryG's in wear picture back on page 3 is not clear and focused in on the badge.

 

--dj--Joe

 

 

I now own that picture 😁

Unfortunately, even blown up the details need to be able to tell from the from whether it was a Poellath or A.G. aren't clear enough.  We can see however that it is the Kleinkaliber version rather than the Armeegewehr....

Another nice piece Lance, although not really my area as this is German rather than Austrian.  I've seen these with two different makers, Lauer as with yours & D.Fechler, Bernsbach.  The latter I suspect are fakes as the enamel leaves much to be desired....  They also come with an added Swastika disc glued to the target, but whether those are period I cannot say....

D

15 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

How common was it to see a 1939 badge minus the swastika?

 

I do recall that Don had or has a 1942 oak leaf shaped tinnie type badge with a target. No swastika in sight. Always liked that piece.

 

--dj--Joe

It's fairly unusual, more so on German pieces than Tiroler pieces.  I suspect the reason for it on this one that Lance posted is that they were made the year before in preparation for issuing in 1939.  The Anschluss happened & either it was too late to change the design, or too expensive....

I remember the one badge ypou mean Joe.  Not sure that I still have it though.....

1 hour ago, Lance O. Adams said:

 

Thanks Don!

Group shots of all of my round badges.  I thought that Ihad a couple of others but couldn't find them.  All are unmarked but for those with the arrows in the reverse views.  Thanks for looking ......

 

 

Thank you for posting them Lance.  All except one of the lapel badges in the bottom row are also Allgemeines Gauabzeichen.  The exception is the last one on the right, the Pistole 1944 which is the lapel version of the Landesschiessen badge. Regarding the larger badges, as you know the A.G. & Co pieces are controversial, however I like them....  Otherwise there isn't anything to worry about with any of the pieces that you show here.

Don

You have good taste, these are nice little badges. It’s an Allgemeines Gauabzeichen or General Gau badge. They were given out at Kreis level at the area shooting house. 

Never a problem Joe. I find this subject just as confusing as it is interesting. I spend years looking for an answer a question that I have, only to have the answer raise further questions 😱

2 hours ago, Lance O. Adams said:

Don et al,

Thanks for the information and comments.  VERY interesting details here.  I really had no idea.  Scowen has done a tremendous job with the research to get us here.  And I have certainly learned a lot.  So it looks as if my "set" is essentially a put together with mainly the horde pieces that were released and sold by dealers.  That's okay.  Two of the four as issues is quite good.  I have others that looking at the information here I am worried are reproductions.  Including several of the A. G. and Co. München marked pieces .....  Will take a group shot of these for review.  

 

While I have you Don ......  Any information on 3 Jahre number 26?  Was it awarded?

 

You are most welcome Lance. 

No, I'm afraid that #26 was not awarded either.  25 & 27 were, but not 26.....  I've often wondered how the serial numbered badges were dished out, as the numbers on the unissued badges seems to be quite random (except for the higher numbers which were obviously just "left over" after the event).  I've come to the conclusion that maybe they were just in boxes & were probably handed out randomly.  Some of the more important people seem to have managed to obtain the same serial number on their badges for each year, but generally it was quite random.

Yes Lance, feel free to post what you have & we will take a look at them.  Thankfully, this area of Third Reich collecting escaped the mass faking we see in other areas & fakes are fairly scarce.

Don

10 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

 I am confused (but getting used to it). If a 3 yr. Meister badge was awarded in 1943, for 41-43. I assume the 4 yr. clasp was given for 1944. Was a 5 yr. clasp envisioned for 1945 since there was a 6 yr. badge planned for 1946?

I also wonder what was the original thought of jumping by threes. 3, 6, 9 Yr's.

 

Just wondering,

--dj--Joe

Indeed.  A 4 Jahre clasp was issued to be attached to the 3 year Meister.  I believe, although to date I have not seen any physical evidence to support it, that clasps for 5, 7 & 8 years were planned.  Whether any were made I cannot say as I have never seen any.  However they are small & unless one realises what they were for they would be easily overlooked.

I think that it is also worth pointing out at this point that 1943 was not the only year that the 3 year badge was issued. Once a shooter had received a dated meister 3 times (not necessarily in three consecutive years) he or she would be entitled to the 3 year Meister.  So for instance, a marksman could have won Meisters in 1941 & 1942, but then not qualified for another until 1944, then the 3 year would have been given in 1944.

6 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

Still thinking. ---- I realize there was no shoot in 1945. I wonder at what point after 1944 the decision was made, since there are no unissued 1945 badges yet they were prepped for 1946 and 1949. 😶

 

--dj--Joe

No idea.  I suspect that the 3, 6 & 9's were all made at the point when the initial approval was given as they are multi construction.  The eagles are made of iron whereas the wreaths are not, so manufacturing would not have been simple. 

Here is a scan showing the 4 year clasp on the full size & lapel 3 year Gaumeister.  As you can imagine, the clasp for the lapel version is tiny.

Hi Lance & welcome to the forum.

Some nice pieces you have there, thank you for posting them.  You read correctly, all of the dated Meisterschütze badges were originally gold grade.  Some unscrupulous dealers repainted them gold, silver or bronze to make them easier to shift.  This originally started when the large number of badges that had been in storage were released onto the market post war.  As they are made of zinc, most if not all of the finish would have gone from the badges, so if they were repainted in different colours, then they could be sold quicker to collectors who were unaware of how they should be.

The 6 year Meister badges were part of the released pieces from the stores.  These were never issued as they had been made in preparation for issuing in 1946 (there are also 9 year badges made to be issued in 1949!!!). There's nothing like forward planning.....

1944 badge #2782 was unawarded.

1944 badge #1056 was awarded to Hans Wolf from Innsbruck.

1943 badge #2491 was also unawarded (the highest numbe badge awarded that year was 2380).

1943 badge #553 was awaded to Adolf Kunsek from Innsbruck.

The badges awarded to Hans & Adolf were the only Meisters issued to them, either they did not qualify for them in other years or they did not take part in the Landesschiessen for the other years.

Hope this is of some interest & I look forward to seeing what else you may have.

Don

I think I have an ausweis somewhere....  If I can find it I'll take a look.  I do have an RDF pin somewhere as well, quite boring compared to these.

Joe,

Sorry, no, nothing official.  Although I have noticed that the larger dealers have started to list some of the coloured & 3D pieces with ranks such as the blue version for Kreisverbandsleiter, blue 3D for Kreisamtsleiter & the black for Mitarbeiter der Landesverbandsleitung : Landeswart, Landesamtswart, Landeskassenwart, Landessippenwart etc....

However I don't know whether this is guess work or based on period evidence which I haven't seen.

Indeed there are Joe.  I haven't dusted off my Frau box yet to see if I have any others to post here....

Hi Joe,

These are quite controversial pieces these days. Quite a number of collectors believe them to be fantasy pieces while others believe them to be good.....

6 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

Don, you have the bronze, silver and gold.

Are the reverses all the same? Robert's example looked like period manufacture.

 

--dj--Joe

Yes Joe, the reverses are identical....  These are indeed strange beasts.

Very nice.  A good piece of research & interesting that the company still exists.

On 07/10/2022 at 03:06, --dj--Joe said:

could it be possible that Roberts Meisterzeichen badge From page 5 could be categorized as a Festabzeichen ?

 

--dj--Joe

I'm not sure what to call them Joe.  To be honest I'm not even convinced that they are not fantasy pieces..... 

The wording is not consistent with the period, I've seen the phrase Kreis-Schützen-Verband used on earlier pieces & on later ones, but not on pieces from this period.  And I've never seen the word Meisterzeichen on a badge from this period either.

Also the manufacturer is one not seen on Austrian shooting badges.  Having said that, the style of crimping on the reverse is correct for a Danner made badge 🤔.  So I think that the jury is still out with these pieces.

The definitley come in bronze, silver & gold, but I haven't seen a wreathed version yet....

Don

Very attractive designs, I too have never seen them.  Good luck with finding the last one...

Don

Nice...

On 26/08/2022 at 20:56, --dj--Joe said:

There is a gilt version of this badge isn't there?

 

--dj--Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry for my late reply, I had to wait until I had time to remove the double images in the thread caused by software updates & to look through my files to see if i had ever managed to obtain one of these pins....

Here after many years is my Aurich version, & as Matthew says there were indeed gold grades as shown my Mike's worn version at the top of the thread.  Another one that I have yet to track down....

Don

14 hours ago, Gefreiter otto said:

Today is my lucky day.

 

Two fellow forum members have helped me by sharing their knowledge.

 

Thank you very much Mr. GreyC  for your translation.

 

Thank you very much Mr. Scowen  for identifying that medal, I really appreciate it, it seems amazing to me.

 

In the world of the Collector there are Great people¡¡

You are welcome, I am just sorry that it took me so long to go through my files for you.

On 29/04/2022 at 19:00, Gefreiter otto said:

 

I have not been able to identify this badge in the form of a Rosette, I think it is red and the White circle

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

Sorry for taking so long to reply to this question, but I have many files to go through. 

I believe the badge is for one of the Marine Bunds, but I'm not totally sure which one.  Here is a picture from my files showing the badge in question.

Hope this helps a little

Don

Hi Rouflab,

Welcome to the forum.

Which ones do you mean, the Merten made pieces or the Paulman & Crone?

Thanks

Don

Hi,

I have seen this style pin plate used on badges made by Gustav Brehmer, Markneukirchen.  Although usually they have their name incorporated into the design of the plate as well, see the example below....

Cheers

Don

Very interesting.  I shall keep a look out for ones that you do not have.

Cheers

Don

Thought I'd reawaken this thread with this little piece that I recently come across, Kreisleitung Rostock, never seen one for this area before.

Cheers

Don