Scowen

Yes, these are generally considered to be fantasy pieces, that is to say that they never existed during the period.

Sorry.

Don

Has anyone got a rough timeline when the insignia changed ?

These dates are very confusing, as a very rough guide, we have generally used H?sken's catalogue "Katalog der Abzeichen deutscher Organisationen 1871 - 1945" as a time frame, however John's certificates seem to show inaccuracies with it. Lets use the shooting badges as an example. Following H?sken, the pin shown on the extreme left (top row) by John above is listed as the DRKB Kyffh?user Type I shooting badge. The Type II is listed as the version showing the monument, with crossed rifles & a Swastika in the centre of them illustrated by John on the extreme right.

H?sken then lists the pin shown in the centre with the small Swastikas in the spaces either side of the monument as the NSRKB, which would be post 1938. However, John's certificate which has this image on is dated April 1937 with the name of the organisation still listed as the DRKB...... Availability wise this makes sense as this pin is far harder to locate than the supposidly earlier version with the single Swastika. A transitional piece which may have only been around for a year will be harder to find that the version which was used until the end of the war.

Cheers

Don

I see the Certificate names the area as Dortmund, anyone know which state this was in? I've just dug out my my Niemann's catalogue to see if he shows it with a Swaz & he names the ones shown as being awarded to members of the Prussian State. There are different designs shown for each State......... Was Dortmund in Prussia? If not then I doubt that the one shown is the version that John is seeking.

Cheers

Don

Thanks Andy, coincidentally, I had just read this interesting artical this very day!

Cheers

Don

Reverse unmarked & a different pin set up than later vesions.

This arrived today, a stunning 1939 silver version. At this time it was still just the "Landesschiessen" & wasn't divided down to particular events.

Again, the pictures do not do this piece justice.

Cheers

Don

Don, I believe the correct marking should read "Entw.Fec.O.Placzek.Berlin". Entwurf in German is scetch or outline

KR

Peter

Indeed it should Peter , a typing error & a mistake in not re reading my own post . Thanks for pointing it out.

Cheers

Don

Some nice looking pins there Nick, looks like you've caught the bug as well

The Wermachtgefolge looks nice, is it marked "WTW Fec. O. Placzek, Berlin, Ausf. C.E. Junker, Berlin"?

Cheers

Don

Indeed you will Ralf, we'll have no half measures here

Seriously though, I'm looking forward to seeing them, they look fine from the front.

Cheers

Don

Not unless the gold has worn off. The silver version was just the standard worked pin.

May we see the reverse?

Cheers

Don

Here's a comparison using a clearer mark from another pin. The description I used of a serif is probably wrong. The ends of the S on the originals are clipped virtically giving an appearence of a serif.

Again, Fake on the left, Original to the right.

Reverse. Note the wider, rounder oval.

Thank you Gentlemen.

Here is a comparison between a fake bought from a reproduction regalia specialist for a couple of pounds & JTW's original.

Note the difference in pebbling, especially the top right corner of this area. Also the gap between the outer edge of the Swastika & inner edge of the surrounding diamond.

Now that's rare one! Very nice indeed, thanks for sharing.

Cheers

Don

I have been in communication with Chris regading the badge he has posted above & have asked for better images of the obverse for I fear that it could be a fake.

The "S" Kolonial pin has been faked for over 30 years now is still being made today.

He are a few points that I have observed. On originals there is usually (but not always) a very slight serif on the tips of the "S", but as I just pointed out, annoyingly not always. However, they did always use a rounder oval to surround the "S" than there seems to be on the one above, only the fakes have the narrow oval.

On the obverse of the badge in the top right corner of the red enamel, next to the top star, originals ALWAYS have a pattern of 9 pebbles/dots. Fakes only have 4 (this is why I've asked for a better image as I can't quite see on Chris' badge). The final clue is the gap between the outer edge of the Swastika & the inner edge of the surrounding diamond. There is ALWAYS a clear & distinct gap between them with white enamel in it, they never run into each other due to the white enamel between them.

Both John Temple-West's badge at the start of the thread & Roberts in post #10 show classic original "S" badges.

Bye the way, the points mentioned above are only for the "S" marked badges, other makers have their own peculiarities.

Cheers

Don

Marked for Steinhauer & L?ck

I managed to find one of the two piece ones the other day, blue version.

Cheers

Don

Robert,

I am currently in negotiations to by one such as this with the same markings. Interestingly going by the sellers images his one is also in a poor condition, if I get it I'll measure & weigh it against the others I have.

Lauer of Nuremberg were known for using Berlin in their marks as well as Nuremberg as they had an office there as well. I'm not sure whether Poellath also had one in Berlin or not, so far these are the only two badges by Poellath I've seen with it on......

Cheers

Don

This badge has been discussed here http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=203053

Cheers

Don

I think it was Relics of the Reich, but I'm not 100% sure. No idea what the price was or who got them I'm afraid. Not an item I considered buying, I just kept the image for reference, sorry.

Thanks for the other shot, if you get time perhaps you could post some detailed shots of a couple of them in their respective threads here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10095 to help our database, doesn't matter if the manufacturer is already present. Just follow the links next to the image required.

Cheers

Don

reverses

And very nice too Chris, thanks for sharing. The 1919 does turn up occasionally however I've never seen an 18 offered for sale yet.....

Here's a group that was recently offered for sale (still no 18).

Any chance of a shot of the frame above the Stahlhelm?

Cheers

Don

Well Gentlemen, whilst all the points raised as to why this badge is a fake are indeed quite valid I'm astonished that the most important & obvious clue has been overlooked.

The first point of call for any enamel collector is the the reverse of the badge, on this one we see the narrow oval pinplate with clipped off ends. These are only ever found on post war produced pins.......

Thank you John for mentioning Wil Saris' excellent article, I know it well.

Cheers

Don

The all important reverse.......

Brian has sent me images of his badge, I've resized them to post here. I'll email Brian my views before posting them here. Anyone else care to comment first?

Cheers

Don