saschaw

Your "50 years service" guess wasn't too bad! However, it is, as BlackcowboyBS already pointed out, no official award of any of the German states. Such generic crosses were used as commemoratives of a 50 year membership in a club or association - be it veterans, marksmen, or anything else. They could be bought from the big badges and insignia makers, from all the Imperial, Weimar, "Third Reich" and even Bundesrepublik era. This one, however, looks rather old and may well date back to Imperial times. It's far from a fortune, but maybe this information is of some help anyway.

Sorry to say so, but this is far from what an authentic Meybauer cross looks like. The core design is unlike theirs, and has never been used on Meybauer crosses. This is a complete, and rather recent fake, as usually seen on ebay! The authentic ones come in several different variations, but that's usually about the silver purity of the single parts. The core design, similar to the classical Godets, is always consistent. Here's a cross I sold some years ago, in 2016 - for comparison purposes:

My best guess this isn't an actual maker's mark in the usual sense, but an additional sign, maybe to attest the actual craftsman within the workshop who assembled it. If this cross doesn't have any additional mark, besides possibly for its silver purity, it's probably not possible to identify the maker. These marks are to be found on several maker's crosses, most (or all) of them from Berlin - mainly the classical EK makers, of whom several did not only produce official award type crosses, but also crosses to be purchased by wearers, probably already early in the war...

Unless it has a maker's mark, such a cross is, to my knowledge, not attributable to a certain maker. There's way too much confusion especially with cores and frames that were shared by several makers - or maybe rather call them "assemblers". Also, I don't think there's a way to be sure or prove cross and document have been together for more than 100 years, but I neither see a reason to doubt it?! But that might probably depend on where it was bought...

I tried to find something more on him... and now that's a bit confusing: mentioned Freiherr Bodelschwingh-Plettenberg became Graf von Plettenberg-Heeren in 1913. Besides being a RM dR in the Leib-Garde-Husaren-Regiment, he was also a chamberlain and a member of the House of Lords! Definitely noone to end with the absolutely lowest Prussian order, I'd assume?! German Wikipedia, besides all that information, shows also a nice picture of him, still with KO4 and an additional RAO4, but it's undated, so I don't know if there were some major changes to his Prussian orders...

I am aware this is a thirteen year old thread, but you're probably getting used to this doesn't mind to me... on my journey through the Prussian 1909 rank list, in my desperate but semi-successful search for the wearer of one of Claudio's mystery medal bars, I found someone who might be a better fit for this group than Dr. Wolff:

A Rittmeister der Reserve Freiherr von Bodelschwingh-Plettenberg from Leib-Garde-Husaren-Regiment is listed with an LD1 and both WF3a and PC3! Only problem: he has an additional KO4. He's also listed with an additional JohR, but that's a neck decoration, and an JK5. Wearing awards granted from now-enemies wasn't too popular in the war, so its lack doesn't mean much. I wonder if he might have made it from KO4 in 1909 to a later KO2?

Not saying it's not Wolff's, and not saying has to be Bodelschwingh-Plettenberg's. But a solid proof for only two out of seven, and an initial research based on the Deutscher Ordens-Almanach, the most incomplete and unreliable source we have, doesn't seem too convincing to me. Maybe someone who has more sources and skills than I wants to take a closer look...

Wow, Dave, I'm impressed - thank you so much! I must have missed him in the 1914 list, then decided to spend half my weekend hunting him down manually in the 1909 issue, but with few success: I had an eye for all Reserve and Landwehr officers with any LD and JM5 or any CD grade, for well-known reasons. It was quite interesting to see how relatively many German officers had such an Chinese order, and how surprisingly few had an JM5.

Ignoring those with other awards lacking here, my search ended with a dozen potential wearers - Mudra was one of them, in 1909 still with LD2 and CDIII2 only. Now I'm really glad I'm not to take another day with another rank list...

Did he get a late KO2, or can we actually assume the cross is a non-fitting replacement to his chain, as I suggested before, instead of the Iron Cross he is supposed to wear?

18 minutes ago, Deruelle said:

Do you  know the name of the officer who received this medal bar with Baden knight cross ?

Christophe, are you ignoring my postings? It seems like... your question has already been answered, you're welcome!

2 hours ago, saschaw said:

Despite I'm not Claudio: The wearer of this terrific medal bar was the General der Infanterie Maximilian Sommer (1846-1925). It has already been shown and discussed here... and we were all part of it, in 2013. So long ago!

I agree he's wearing the Colonial and China medal, and the precedence is proper as well, according to a Steinhauer & Lück sales catalog from January 1939 that includes such a list. Not knowing much about the clasps, I had a look at the excel "Gesamtliste" published on German SDA forum by member "CSForrester". It mentions a clasp "KAMERUN 1884" given to a Hoffmann, but I'm not sure this if is your man. However, no other clasp to a Hoffmann is mentioned there, so it should be him...

Have you tried the forum search? I think I found him - here. Or is that another v. Borries?

17 hours ago, Deruelle said:

Do you have a name for your medal bar with BV3?

Despite I'm not Claudio: The wearer of this terrific medal bar was the General der Infanterie Maximilian Sommer (1846-1925). It has already been shown and discussed here... and we were all part of it, in 2013. So long ago!

Beau Newman, that Ernestine house order for home front merits is amazing, thank you so much!

The combination alone from the bar is definitely unique, but the problem is: where to look. For officers of the Prussian army, the main sources are the annual rank list, showing all noteworthy awards to the listed men. But the last Prussian army rank list was published in (early) 1914, so I have to work with his pre-war decorations: the RAO4, a Landwehr long service award 1st class (or possibly then 2nd class?) and the Italian order, plus the Chinese award from the chain. Everything else is WW1 era or later, or unlisted as commemorative medals.

As I cannot find anyone that matches in the 1914 rank list, he probably was already out of military service, getting some of his awards as a civil servant or a private citizen. Career officers would be so much easier to find... we would have to know in which year he's still listed, and in which he dropped out - and that's pure guessing. I wasn't lucky now, but maybe someone else will have a brilliant idea... hope dies last, and this combination is leaping to the eye.

4 hours ago, Great Dane said:

(...) would the Italian order be without crown on the bar and with crown on the mini (two different periods)?

Sorry, but that's not two periods, but two different classes: knight's cross (JM5) vs. officer's cross (JM4). A mistake not unheard of, even from a premium outfitter. Besides that, I don't really see too many inconsistencies: The Chinese decoration is definitely a neck decoration, and the Ecuadoran order, awarded to this man in the 1920s, could hardly be a breast decoration either.

What I hadn't noticed by now is the lack of an EK for the chain. While that's entirely possible, I think we should consider the possibility the Prussian Royal Crown Order might be a later, non-fitting replacement. I find it also noteworthy both pieces are made by the Gebr. Godet firm and thus in the 1930s, but the chain dates to the years until 1934/35, whereas the medal bar wasn't created before 1938, the year the Treudienst-Ehrenzeichen was instituted.

I came across this old thread, and can hardly believe the wearer of this bar (or set) still couldn't be identified. I made some more tries, and failed, again. My best idea then was to hunt him down in the indexed Deutscher Ordens-Almanach. Sure the Ecuadoran Orden Nacional al Mérito would be most helpful here... unless that hadn't been instituted until the 1920s! I am at my wit's end, or rather at my resources'... an invisible man.

Despite the Royal Mint supplied a total of 278 crosses, only 119 were awarded from 1916 to 1918. The roll is know to exist in HStA Stuttgart, but it's not published at Klein & Raff (Klein, Ulrich and Raff, Albert: Die Württembergischen Medaillen von 1864–1933 (einschließlich der Orden und Ehrenzeichen). Stuttgart 2010. p. 526/527). The produced number of 278, however, includes the special type with the "double crown", which presumably was awarded to 11 royals on the occasion of the king's 25 year reign jubilee.

Odd enough, there is another cross offered on German ebay right now, but it looks much less promising than the beautiful pieces shown here...

4 hours ago, Claudio said:

Do you think that in the case of Wilfsdorf's bar the ribbons on the Reussisches Ehrenkreuz 3th class and the Belgian Leopold order with swords (officer class) are both in violet colour...

The yellow, red and black striped war ribbon wasn't introduced until late 1914 or early 1915, so you're totally right: a pre-war decoration would necessarily be worn on the purple ribbon.

I totally get your point, David, but have to say I never had that problem in years... I'm soon to send him a big list of books I need once I have compared my library to his offerings.

By the way, has anybody seen the Grand Cross award document of the Order of Saint Marinus, offered at ratisbon's? That probably has to be an once in a life time chance for sure...

I think you would have to send a email to Autengruber, as suggested on the start page.

For those who might be interested, the 2008 book on Bismarck's awards is available at Michael Autengruber's orden-der-welt.de as well, for a ridiculous EUR 24,80. I think I paid significantly more for mine, back then... and it was worth every Cent!

19 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

If he was awarded the Stern zum, would the Stern also have the Eichenlaub und Schwertern or just the Schwertern if it was written in the Rangliste as RAO2ExmSTx?

Any officer who had the RAO2E would receive the star with oaks as well, right. The star would have swords if awarded for war merit, or "swords on ring" for a later peace time award. The abbreviation you quote looks like a war time award, so: both cross and star with oaks and swords. I don't think this could be any different.

Thanks, Dave! I don't actually need it as I bought the list on CD some years back. This was rather asking for the benefit of others... major question now is if this thread should or should not be pinned!

On 24/10/2019 at 16:02, filfoster said:

OK: Here's my stab at a replica:

Just one small mistake: His 3rd class Austrian Order of he Iron Crown (ÖEK3) is a peace time award, thus should be without the laurel wreaths ("Kriegsdekoration", war decoration). Otherwise, despite I'm truly no fan of reproductions, very well made!

Bumping this up as it seems nothing has changed since ccj's suggestion. I find it really impractical if almost the upper half of this sub-forum's first page is covered with pinned threads, suppressing the very new topics soon to the second page. After (almost) all agreed to ccj's proposal, might please someone consider to unpin at least the medal bars and collection threads, that are having a pinned index thread (sic)? Everything besides that one and the really important Common Abreviations for Imperial Medals & Orders thread could easily be unpinned, in my opinion. And I promise you, none of the old super-threads will disappear. They will show up again and again. Thanks for your consideration!

On 02/02/2015 at 13:29, Paul C said:

Agreed, but I think we should pin this post so other can see it and express their thoughts.

On 29/03/2019 at 20:03, Freiwillige said:

4. Prussia. Kriegsdenkmünze für die Feldzüge 1870/71 für Kämpfer

That could well be the steel medal on combatant ribbon, awarded to 341,949 military personnel that stayed in Germany during the Franco-Prussian war - and as it is to be seen on the miniature medal bar...

Looking at it once again, I think chances are pretty high those did use belong together...

On 10/01/2020 at 18:23, VtwinVince said:

Both good pieces, the KO is a wartime piece for sure.

Sorry for being such a weisenheimer, but that is totally not for sure: As the awarding of the Iron Cross wasn't finished until 1924, we cannot say for sure it's wartime. The 1st class crosses by "KO" are rather late, they didn't start to deliver these until mid-1917. Chances are this was awarded in 1917 or 1918 - or, maybe even more likely, in the post-war years. All we do know: it's definitely an award type cross. And it's great to know who wore them, which is unusual!