saschaw

I always wondered how the Spanish order of St. John ended up ordering decorations from a foreign maker. After all, Spain had some really, really good orders' jewelers on their own...

By the way, a Godet cased ensemble has already been shown here a few years ago!

On 09/02/2022 at 10:09, saschaw said:

This has been the nicest of two or three of this type that I had so far.

The nicest of the gilt type, to be accurate... six years ago, I had an early WW1 era cross in gold by Gebr. Hemmerle as well. It was produced from an old Hausinger or Elchinger made cross by adding crown and swords, and maybe the flames as well, in case this originally was a knight's cross 2nd class.

Authentic pieces of this rarity and quality are not often to be seen, which is a shame... because they're certainly fun!

On 03/09/2019 at 21:51, Alex K said:

is that reduced size centenary a 30mm prinzen?

Certainly seems so, from the proportions. It's just slightly bigger than the SLD2...

On 30/07/2022 at 10:01, saschaw said:

However, I think I have never seen one "in the wild"!

I stand corrected - we actually have seen one here, seventeen(!) years ago...

Or, as Jörg Nimmergut price-guides it: 265,- Euro. If only one was available!

On 21/06/2022 at 04:27, VtwinVince said:

I believe it's genuine, and have had it for many years.

To be honest, I have some reservations. First, I find it hard to imagine someone could spend 70 years in Prussian state service and receive just this one and only decoration. Second, the ribbons have a certain look that cause me some discomfort... sorry for being somewhat picky about it! 

What a ridiculous long list... he's probably among the most decorated persons of his era!

On 23/09/2021 at 02:22, Deutschritter said:

(...)

Preußischer Kronenorden, I. Klasse

Sankt-Annen-Orden, I. Klasse (RA1)

Preußischer Kronenorden, I. Klasse

 (...)

Just to be 100 %: he didn't receive the Prussian KO1 twice, did he?

Unfortunately, I never handled one, but I have seen a few of these within the past years. Certainly an uncommon decoration, and with a very appealing design... congratulations to your find! What I did have some years ago, however, was a picture with one "in wear". The new owner was able to identify this man as Oberstleutnant z. D. Dilthey:

On 29/03/2015 at 07:29, Streptile said:

The card the ribbon is wrapped around says "Bayern Sanität....." and then becomes illegible for the last word or syllable. I assumed that was an error, or the card was used for a different ribbon before, because I've been unable to find anything that fits the bill.

No error, actually they were quite right: it's the war ribbon of the Kriegserinnerungszeichen 1914/18 des Bayerischen Landesvereins vom Roten Kreuz, instituted in 1924. There's another ribbon, without the black stripes, for home merit. As said, it's no state award, and thus not listed in our major sources... sometimes, it's a bit tricky!

On 02/03/2022 at 00:18, Deutschritter said:

Gentlemen, if I see this right, even though Maximilian Ludwig Hermann Fidel Freiherr von Watter (Generalleutnant since 1899) was a Württemberger, he received the Zentenarmedaille in 1897.

Of course he would - as did every other wearer of the Prussian Kriegsdenkmünze pro 1870/71, independently of their former combatant vs. non-combatant status, their current rank or occupation, their nationality or even their sex.

Roughly half of the 1.2 Million Zentenarmedaillen went to veterans of Wilhelm I's wars of 1864, 1866 and 1870/71, while the other half was awarded to soldiers active in the Prussian army or "Reichs" troops in March 1897.

On 13/10/2021 at 05:30, freiherr said:

Here only SA2aKD

Not sure if I might get something wrong, freiherr, but his Albrechtsorden commander's cross does not have a "war decoration" (KD), because that would simply be swords - and he has those on the knight's cross. If you are, as I assume, referring to the oak wreath of the cross: that's an integral part of this order's design for all classes but its lowest one.

1 hour ago, speedytop said:

 (...) but still it is very hard to say. The color of my medal and its swords are identical.

Then it's probably one of the less common medals in gold. That being said, Nimmergut's OEK price guide seems to be remarkably unrealistic here: The Goldene Ehrenmedaille mit Schwertern is listed at 900.- Euro, which seems way too high, while the Silberne Verdienstmedaille mit Schwertern is supposed to sell in the 75.- Euro range.

Even for Nimmergut's standards, that's very moderate. Twice as much would probably be what they're selling for.

And I'm not even talking about the high risk and too easy execution of manipulation here, because this should, in my eyes, actually not be considered in a price guide which, in theory, lists and values authentic pieces only.

On 13/06/2021 at 19:22, webr55 said:

[...] Fritz Barth (if "Hausorden" means "Verdienstorden" here):

 

On 13/06/2021 at 19:34, laurentius said:

Haus-orden can correctly be distinguished as the Saxon Verdienstorden. For regular people at home in a pre-computer age it was hard to keep up with the decorations of the 25 (!) different German states.

Gentlemen, we sometimes have to think Ducal instead of Royal... checking at Lundström/Krause (2008), p. 35, I found this Fritz Barth received an "EH3bX" from Sachsen-Altenburg on May 15, 1918... so, almost certainly no Saxon "SV3bX" for him!

Has this group been restored within the past twelve months?

I would love to see the absolutely glorious result!

Sorry, Uwe, I wouldn't dare to tell from pictures, if you cannot judge it while having it in hands...

It might be noteworthy however, the swords are always gilt. If the color of your medal and its swords are identical, it should be "gold". If there appears to be more gold on swords than on the medal, it's probably just patina...

10 hours ago, David M said:

Zelosko is the book on The MCFO?

Indeed, yes: Frank Zelosko, Für Badens Ehre. Militärischer Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstorden und Verdienstmedaille 1807 – 1918. Mosbach 2003 (Erster und Zweiter Band) and 2006 (Dritter Band).

I was surprised Lehmann had a "Karl Friedrich" knight's cross before he won the commander's cross. That knight, of course, wouldn't be listed in the Hof- und Staatshandbuch anymore, of course.

Zelosko (vol. 2, p. 124/125) had more than just the two awards. I hope it's of some use!

Thank you, Dave and Daniel, for these most insightful additions and explanations! I had no idea how wrong some award numbers I'm quoting from otherwise good books might actually be...

2 hours ago, spolei said:

the symbol could be 2. bayr. Infanterie-Regiment with the letters of Max Emanuel.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but for a Royal cypher, I'd expect a crown above...

On 10/10/2021 at 17:06, laurentius said:

I have a feeling that the Prinzregent Luitpold-medaille doesn't belong here but I don't think it was a volkspflege, the white edges are too thin for that. I have a feeling we're looking at Lippe or perhaps something Ottoman.

I have to disagree here and hope nothing has been altered?! Echoing what waldo and Schießplatzmeister already said, neither is a little discoloration unusual, nor is the use of a private purchase "Schnallenstück".

The Prinzregent-Luitpold-Medaille am Bande der Jubiläumsmedaillle is not only the second most common of all these medals with the Prinzregent's portrait, but it's also one of the two more likely medals for this ribbon in this combination. There's nothing indicating a "switcheroo" in my eyes... don't worry!

On 11/10/2021 at 17:27, Deutschritter said:

Now my sincere question: did he receive the swords, as you wrote, or not? As an amateur I am very inquisitive and willing to learn.

As Daniel said above, if "somebody had a peacetime class, he could get another one with swords and wear both the same time". While this was not usual in Prussia, where additional swords would be awarded to a "innehabende" peace time class, and thus replacing it, Baden did the same. You'll find quite some rank list entries with two same class awards of the Bavarian MVO or Baden's Zähringer lion order with and without swords, but nothing like this (or hardly anything?) with Prussian orders... everything clear now?

Thanks, Laurentius, that's an unusual portrait and an even more interesting research!

On 12/10/2021 at 22:27, laurentius said:

Note the many mistakes. He received the Hohenzollernerische Ehrenkreuz 3. klasse mit Schwertern, not the Hohenzollernerische Hausorden. If it weren't for the Fürstlich added as an adjective one might believe he received the HoHx. It is also described that the received the 'offizierskreuz' 2. klasse of the 'Hoher Österreichischer Franz Josephs Orden' which is also wrong. He received the Ritterkreuz 4. klasse. These mistakes appear sloppy, but wouldn't lead a experienced collector astray.

The "Fürstlich Hohenzollerischer Hausorden" is actually not wrong, but its grade should indeed be named "Ehrenkreuz" instead of "Ritterkreuz III. Klasse". Your Austro-Hungarian Franz Joseph order's grade, however, is wrong as well. It's just "Ritterkreuz", and not "Ritterkreuz 4. Klasse". Indeed, the 4th class is the order's knights' cross, or lowest grade below Grand cross, commander and officer. It seems being 100 % accurate is quite complicated, same for them back than as for us today...

On 25/03/2014 at 06:58, NavalMark said:

The Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen was never awarded with the black-white prussian "war-ribbon".

Despite their number is technically negligible, according to Eric C. Ludvigsen's counting of the Royal Prussian Ordens-Liste, there were indeed at least two(!) such medals awarded, one each in 1907 and in 1910.

A few more could be possible, but I don't have further information. Also, I have no idea who received such an exception or why, but from the dates, it sounds like probably something in the colonies, maybe civilians (without a specific rank) taking up arms against "insubordinate" Natives?!

Needless to say no one should pay any bonus for a single AEZ coming with a black and white ribbon, because that's just too easy to manipulate, but if a fitting document should ever surface, this might be rather interesting!

On 20/05/2022 at 12:59, LuckySlevin said:

Given that on his website he is also selling all the simple medals separately I am a little bit afraid that this one could be a made up medal bar. May be I am too sceptical.

I think you are! The awards are fine, the combination is possible and makes sense, and there's no "red flags" from the group's general appearance or craftsmanship.

If I were looking for a bar like this for my collection, I wouldn't hesitate too much, due to the special ribbon on this Bavarian MVO: While there was a total of more than 26,000 MVO 4th class crosses with swords awarded for WW1, only 623 were awarded on the specific "Beamten" ribbon!

Honestly, I can hardly remember the last one I saw for sale in an authentic group... a no-brainer, actually! Please feel free to send me a private message, if it's still available.

20 hours ago, filfoster said:

I have never seen a copy of it. If I copy this medal bar, that will be the most difficult one to get. 

It might be helpful the older type looks technically the same as the later one from Lippe (-Detmold), with their major difference being the initials in the reverse's(!) center...

On 03/11/2013 at 10:02, Alan said:

I can't seem to find mention or even a pic of a 15 year DA for Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach. Does it exist at all? Does anyone have one to show?

Can anyone help me fill the gap?

Unfortunately, I cannot help you fill the gap and never handled one, but they do exist. I have several books on Sachsen-Weimar awards, and they even have pictures...

However, I think I have never seen one "in the wild"! For some odd reason, these must be ultra rare?!

On 13/01/2022 at 19:03, Deutschritter said:

Thank you, I didn't know Malteser wore neck orders that looked so much like Johanniter. Do you happen to know, if he was  Ehren- or Devotionsritter?

Sorry, I have no idea. So far, I totally failed to understand the grades of this Catholic order of chivalry...

On 14/01/2022 at 09:08, v.Perlet said:

Preussische Dienstauszeichnung 9 Jahre.

Can't be. This one was for EM and NCOs, while "our" Hohenzollern prince, of course, was an officer!