Graf

The Set was just sold on eMedals Auction for $ 8521 including the commission fees That is above the prices of  similar Sets recently sold in the range of 5-6000 EURO on different Auctions in EUROPE

What I found very disturbing is the fact that the seller has listed for the last few days at least 20-25 Collectors Copies of a  high Classes of different Orders from Europe It looks like he got them from one source

Are they  collectors copies??

My latest mini

Austrian made with Austrian marks on the ring

Hi Ilieff,

Thank you for your input into the discussion.

Yes, The Prince Romanoff book was not the most precise one, however for the time was the best one, Also he had access to some of the Orders that not many others had.

My main problem with the Set  currently on sale is the quality of the items.

It was the highest Order and we can assume that  the quality has to be the highest.

At least the seller, considering the quality of the Set, has described it as "Collectors Copy".

My question is are those starnge Sets Collectors copy made at some point to meet the collectors demand or they are fakes made to fool the collectors

We can assume that not only Rothe made the Order The firm Zimmerman, in my opinion, was given the tusk to produce few of the 'juwelled" Sets.

I hope you can give us more information regarding the King Simeon II Model.

Although those Orders were made after the World War Two because he was the King in exile those orders are considered to be genuine and they have collectors value

It is believed that the Spanish Firm Cejalvo produced them

One of the question, which is open- Did  King Simeon II ordered Sets or only Lesser Collar Crosses.

Regards

56 minutes ago, Bayern said:

Gentlemen ,Cejalvo with C and not S is a old Spanish manufacturer of orders and medals I suggest a visit to the site www condecoracionescejalvo. es / 

Hi Bayern,

Thank you for noticing the typo mistake.

It is human.  As interesting fact -few months ago Australia Mint printed new 50 Dollars notes It took more then 6 months till a collector discovered a spelling mistake, which was repeated three times in the small print (noticeable only with high magnification) The Australia Mint already printed 400 000 000 notes valued 2 Billions Dollars  Because of the high volume this note will be not a "rare" bird The Spoke person for the Mint stated that it will not be removed from circulation, however the next print will be with the correct spelling

I know it is with C not S

I have seen recent makes of the Cejalvo Firm of mainly Spanish Orders, however the quality is not as good as the items made by the same firm long time ago

Regards

Hi

I just added this nice medal to my collection

and also a very important and interesting Star, which was a part of a group of the British Admiral of a fleet Sir Colin Keppel It is believed it was given to him after the visit of the Sweden Royal family

On 20/02/2019 at 16:20, Alex K said:

In my opinion It' actually looks more like an EKII converted to a RK at some point, the difficulty is knowing when it was done, quite a simple job, it could have been done during the war or it could have been done 6 months ago from "Period" parts, unless you have full "Provenance" you'll never know, sorry

 

regards

 

Alex

Hi  Toot,

Yes, that was the practice on the field, however unless the items come directly from the family with a very strong "Provenance ( better with Photo of the awarded person wearing the converted EK2)' then the door is wide open for speculations.

Because the "converted' EK2 to RK demands bigger price it is quite temping for certain people to do so now and claim that it is a period conversion. I even would not trust "reputable" dealers because even they can be tricked or worse knowingly selling such item as "period conversion"

Hi Relentless,

Welcome to the Club.

Thank you for the nice pictures

The other Orders are amazing Especially the Order for Civil merit 1st Class for ladies Set with original box and picture of the awarded person

Regarding the SS Cyril and Methodius Cross I agree with you that the Star on the photo with King Boris looks the same, however we have been discussing for a while a strange Set with blue enamel inside the both central medallions -similar to the one in Tallinn Museum Such sets appeared in the market 2-3 years ago One of them was sold in Holland The Set had the same Sash as the one in Tallinn About the same time was reported by one of our members

Now a similar Set appeared for sale as "Collectors copy" The good news is the seller provides very detailed pictures and we can compare it with the well known originals

All those Sets have also one thing in common the back of the flames on the crosses are not enameled

The discussed Sejalvo Cross and supposedly existing Stars are also considered as original, however more modern version. They were ordered by the current Monarch King Simeon in around 1970s. At that time he was living in exile in Spain

The official maker of this Order The Austrian firm Rothe made them during the both King Ferdinand and King Boris period up till the end of WW2

There were fiw Sets that were made after the war up to the 1960s for the collectors market using the original dies and supposedly left over materials After the firm was closed there is a big question what has happened with the dies for many Orders not only Bulgarian ones

Supposedly those post war sets by Rothe  had marks that they deffer from the old oriignal to reflect the time they were made, however nobody has had a detailed research of  those facts

Our tusk is to find out whether those crosses  and sets were made more recently using the original dies or made by this purpose new dies i.e words whether those Sets are copies with less little value for the collectors and the market. Once this is identified it is up to the collector to decide whether he/she can have them in their collection and how much they are willing to spend

We here on those forums try to establish the truth using our knowledge and the existing facts

Regards

Hi 922F

Here are pictures from Tallinn Museum and The suspected Sejalvo Set as you described (although I have not seen on the market those Stars)

Regarding the Sash  I have seen originals with both types, however more with the bow only -no rosette( last picture)

Hi 992F

I agree with you It is a mystery -who and when ?

I still interested in thje link with the Museum in Tallinn My theory is that they ordered a ?Museum copy? and the person who made it made few more for the market They all appeared within 1-2 years on the market  The Set for sale at the moment could be one of them.

Regarding the Sejalvo pieces = my research is that this company made only the cross at that time

On this picture the cross with the sash looks one of them

...or it could be Junker made

That is the frame of EK1 by Juncker 

...also the top of the EK2 where the loop is attached, resembles the 1939 EK2 by Juncker

Any idea?

Pictures of the Set sold recently  by the same dealer

Hi

What i suspected and we discussed this strange model of the Bulgarian Order of SS Kyril and

Methodius.

A Set of this model appeared for sale on a dealer site as "Collector's Copy"

For the first time we have more details pictures of this "strange' model

We can see the luck of the quality  typical for this Order bear in mind it was the highest Order of Kingdom of Bulgaria.

The mystery is when those collectors copies were made and spread on the market How many of them were made As you remember few of those copies were sold as "originals" on various Auctions and sellers sites 2-3 years ago One is in the Museum of Tallinn  on display

Interesting fact is that a Set of similar design of a mystery Order ( Discussed as well on this forum) was sold by the same seller

BTW this seller is currently selling few more  "Collector's copies" of various Orders from Europe

Those are two EK1 by AWS When I look the frame size and other features i can see some similarities with the EK2 I listed

HI 922F

I agree  with you

It is my Gem of the collection of my Bulgarian miniatures

It looks like French made

The mark on the loop is extremely small i wonder how they managed to put it - even with 30x i still can not "read" it

it is 18 carat gold ,therefore i assume the mark is for gold

I have been chasing one of those gems for a long time.

I think those luxury Bulgarian miniatures are the hardest to get (at least for me) and much rarer then those from other countries

HI I recently added to my collection this 1914 EK2 with a wide frame

It is  - 44 mm wide with the 26.5 mm width of each arm which is 3mm more then the width of the arms of the standard cross by Godet on the right

The cross is not marked and the loop on top of the cross on the back is open -in a similar way as some of the 1939 EK2 with a "round 3"

It is with a iron core. It is interesting that its weight is less then the Godet's cross - 16.1 grams compared to 19.3 grams

I have seen couple of similar crosses in the past on sellers sites and they claimed to be made by AWS

Any opinions

On 20/03/2019 at 23:46, 922F said:

Graf--A gem of a gem with gems!!  Puns intended.  French manufacture?  Have you the realized price?  Thank you for posting this GEM!

16 hours ago, spolei said:

Who was awarded with the diamond cross?
 

For the small awards dedehansen is right The models with Diamonds were given as present to the awarded person by friends, family members etc. In some cases the awarded person ordered them to show some status in the society

In very rare occasions the Rulers/Monarch of the day awarded VIP and other Royals with the highest Classes with Diamonds and made by order specially for the occasion.

For example the Turkish Sultan was known to like such luxury awards and all Rulers from around the world were giving him such awards They are in display in the Sulatn Museum in Istanbul

Jaw dropping collection

All Emperors of France inluding Napoleon were wearing such luxury Orders. There is not a special status in the awarding system for this luxury models- just show off You can see some of them in the LOH Museum in Paris

It looks nice

It is a Knight Cross from 3rd Republic- Luxury  Model domed with raised leaves

Made from Silver ( must be a mark for silver (boar head at the bottom of the cross) with Gold central medallions (three parts

The Diamonds are not very high quality -  more likely WW1 period made item

Those models can have different numbers of Diamonds from a single one to more the 50 (when the white enamel is replaced with diamonds

I hope this helps

Hi

There is one more Gem of gem with gems, as 922F stated,

Hi,

I just want to revive this topic with an item i got recently

Till now according to the existing books and our knowledge Order for Bravery without swords were awarded only in 4th Class for Officers However recently i came across to a cross that was awarded to a private who served in a medical Unit He cut off the swords very roughly om the battle  field Because the cross came directly from the family we can trust th information they gave to the fellow collector

My item is a Soldier Cross with out swords The cross was made without them The inspection of the cross showed no evidence of swords ever been on the cross the edges and the rims were fully intact The Cross came with a big Document, which i doubt could be related to it. The Document is for a Completed medical Course by NCO Very attractive one.

Those findings could bring more light to this topic and can change the believe that only Officers, Doctors and Clergy man were awarded this type of Bravery Orders

I also found Documents that show that Soldier Crosses, contrary to our knowledge, were awarded to Officers not only to lower ranks

Hi,

This is typical Officer Class by the Belgium maker Jules Heremans  - period 1880-1920

If it is in gold it could weight around 21-22 grams without the ribbon  Size will be around 73.5 mm long and 41mm wide They are made from 18 Carat Gold and not always marked, however I have seen crosses made and  marked for 14 Carat gold.

Typically those crosses have "II" on  the middle of the reverse medallions, however it is not a must

If The above is not matched it could be late make and made from gilded silver After 1920 the orders (  Officer Class and higher Classes) were, due to economic considerations, made from  gilded silver not from gold

See pictures provided

I hope this helps

Regards

Hi,

It is difficult to determine the class only by the ribbon.

Since the person was Vice -Admiral it could be anything from an Officer to a Grand Officer Class,depends when he was awarded. - ( as Vice Admiral or earlier in his carrier)

That little gem was sold an auction few months ago

Pity i missed the auction

Thank you

Here is a a nice Iron Cross grouping to a Bulgarian general Stefan Popoff (Popov)

Both crosses are marked 800 Not rare however the Documents are It is a big grouping including the General School Certificate from primary School Field letters to his wife and the Awarding Documents including congratulating letter

Hi Chris,,

I searched the market quite a bit and also the available information on internet

I found, so far, that this variation with brass frame does not come with a back plate??!!

All the  EKs I have seen from this variation are with the brass nut only

All of them do not show any signs that they ever had back plate The patina on all of them is quite even on the  reverse surface of the cross -including the cross I listed

The silver frame screw back  models come with two types of back plates -round and a cross like one (with one or two posts)

I discussed this topic on two more threads regarding the pillow back model

Interesting fact is that on two other forum sites where those crosses were discussed the owners of this variation sadly stated that their crosses were missing the back plate On both crosses that were listed  I did not noticed any signs for ever existing back plate  Both had this even patina on the reverse  surface

Unless more information is found I started to believe that this variation was with no back plate