Hi,

Here is the information from  Prince Romanoff book

As I suggested he considers that this is second model of the cross, which was awarded.It is obvious that this model is by far much rarer then the first model

The large ring could be another feature of this rare model apart from the other different features

Hi Ilieff you have good eyes I did not notice that the line was drawn. That explains the difference This ribbon was modified to match the design of the original ribbon

Bear in mind that Prince Romanoff had an exclusive access to very rare items at the time of writing his book including some rare ones. This was not the case fro the Bulgarian authors. This can explain why some of those models did not appear in their books. They rely on their own collections and the ones of fellow collectors.

Graf

Hi Petar,

Very interesting facts

Can you consider that this could be a rare Model with the name of the maker stamped on it

Many of the books for Bulgarian Orders, although some of them are very good,, are not covering 100% of what was made. Like many Bulgarian and non Bulgarian awards, this particular one can come in two models marked and not marked and the first one being much rarer then the second one Why experimental or prototype model We can assume that this is a official marked model and as i mentioned rarer then the not marked one..

Like you say, this rare model came with a ribbon, although it is different from the well known one ( not only the size) suggests that it was awarded The smaller size ribbon  indicate that  it might have been awarded to a lady.

Graf

Hi Igor,

There is a similar book on Bravery Order by

Uwe Bretzendorfer

I have this book.I was lucky that Uwe sold me the very last copy he had

i am not sure whether he will re- publish it again

Uwe does not have any more copies at this stage

It looks like the Bulgarian Bravery Order is quite popular in Germany due to the fact that many Germans s were awarded

It is very nice book He has a little bit different classification of the Bravery Order from those ones of the Bulgarian authors. He himself is a eager collector of Bulgarian Orders

I will post the front cover in the next 1-2 days

Graf

It is sad that the Auction House has split the Set

Starting price for the Cross -40 000 EURO plus com

Starting Price for the Star -15.000 EURO plus com

I wish i could buy both and keep the Set together...Just a dream

Hi Lambert,

The problem is that thre are collectors on the market who do not communicate with other fellow collectors and they buy such items believing that they are original. They even do not bother to check the diamonds. Even the diamonds were real , they could be very low grade ones. As far  as  I remember the Bravery "Set" was on sale for over 10.000 US$ The value of low quality diamonds plus the 1941 Orders cold be around 2.000 - 3,000 US$ at the best. Stl profit of 7.000.  ,,, and this is the best scenario if the Star is Original and the Diamonds real

This is not the only Luxury set offered by dishonest sellers. I remember few of them. There was a St Alexander Star offered by seller fro turkey. I saw the Star on his site before it was turned into "Luxury" with Diamonds The Star had specific marks that I noticed even after the improvement The price jumped nearly tenfold It was sold on Ebay.

. Do not spend hard earned money for questionable items... or they will be yours for ever with no value

Hi Johannis,

Many times the Order and the box are not from the same maker or period.That is because down the time many collectors and dealers mix and match them

The ribbon looks very new to me

When you get the Order you can check for any makers marks

Perhaps some more advanced collectors of Italian Orders can identify the period of your Order from the picures

Best

Graf

The First Model of Prince Ferdinand for 20 years Service was with a reverse text "Sluzba Otlicna" The reverse medallion ha the date 2 August 1887 This is the date when Prince Ferdinand arrived in Bulgaria after being elected as a prince

The Second Ferdinand Model for 29 years Service is the same, however the text is  "Otlichna Sluzba" and the quality of the green enamel is not as fine as the one of the First Model

In King Boris Model for 20 years Service, as the one shown by Camelneck, the reverse is changed with one with a Lion without a shield Om the reverse the Prince/King Ferdinand initial is changed with the one of King Boris

Here is a nice example of First Model for 20 years of Service  by Rothe

Hi Binky,

There are other scenarios as well :

Many buyers are not members of any clubs like this one and they will keep the items till they sell them and then they will find the truth Some will find sooner and will try to recover the loss by re-selling them

This guy was very smart , he knew what he was doing, therefore he had no return policy. Also the Ebay policy for fakes is that the buyer has to provide a certificate from a reputable expert that the item is fake..and then still it is not guaranty that he/she will get the money back

The moral of the story is if you see such a sale you better pass it

Keep away if the seller does have very vague details of the items, does not specify if the item is Original and has No return policy Always ask questions before commit yourself

Hi

With a risk to put oil into the fire Do not forget that the main occupation of the owner of eMedals has jeweler

He run successful jewellery business before started selling Military stuff

I also found very similar repair patterns in the enamel especially on the top of the right arm on the picture #44

it cannot be coincidence such identical repair on two extremely rare models surfacing on the market in a very short time

I might be wrong

I have seen over the years some items being sold and re-sold over and over aging with signs of small or big improvements

Here is another early model sold by eMedals recently after being offered not long ago by a German dealer

Those are the pictures from the German dealer site, which i was lucky to copy before the Order was sold and then appeared on eMedals site ..and sold again.

Here are the pictures of this Model  re-sold by eMedals

as    A Napoleonic Period Swedish Order of the Sword in Gold c.1815 -

Regardless of those small differences both of them look from the same period

When I listed the eMedals piece i did not mean that it was exactly the same as the one shown earlier in the thread

i did mean that the piece is the same model from the Napoleon period

Graf

Very Bad news

The fakers get away with a nice payments due to ignorance of Ebay and Ebay users

i alerted Ebay -the response - only the Standard Thank you We will look into the issue.

I looked into the other other of the seller  very strange - some of them have shipping address in Bulgaria

I hope this is one off problem he sells only very cheap coins. We will see

Buyer Be Aware Rule

It looks like what was a good Star or a part of it was altered plus engraving was added to look more real and also to add more value to the Star --similar to the engraved German Iron Crosses.

I collect Iron Crosses as well, however personally  I will be very reluctant to buy an engraved one unless I am 100% sure it is done at around the time of awarding

Nevertheless, every collector has to make their mind whether he/she wants to have such a piece in their collection

This thread is to alert the fellow collectors, however the choice is their

Graf

Hi Stuka,

Some of the luxury Belgium miniatures are with real stones some are with artificial ones

It is very difficult to say only from the pictures

The best advice is to test them with a jeweler  If you are located in Antwerp there are plenty of them and some of the nicest luxury Belgium miniatures are made there

Graf

Hi Camelneck,

There is a book  for sale on Ebay  $159.90 or make an offer - free delivery

The seller is 357-art from Bulgaria

Good Luck

Book " BULGARIAN ORDERS AND MEDALS " prof. Pavlov Lux Catalogue

Hi guys.

I i is nice to "hear' that you like the thread.

I started it because I noticed that till then there had been no much information about fakes of Bulgarian Orders and decorations, Most of the collectors had to make their own judgement regarding the decorations that were for sale or an offer on the market.

No body knows when the Bulgarian fakes came for the first time on the market,neither is known whether fakes have been made only in Bulgaria. Although that at one or another stage the fakes were discussed somewhere in the forums.

It looks like that there is a new wave of Bulgarian fakes on the market The Ebay is not the only place for their distribution, although it is the easiest The problem is that many Military Dealers and Auction Houses, knowingly or not knowingly, also contribute to the sale of the fakes.

All those facts have to make us very alert about any suspicious Bulgarian Decorations that appear on the market.

The big question is how to separate the fakes from some pieces that are once off made or were made by order privately by the awarded persons or their families.

My advice to the new collectors is to start with well known low levels decorations and once they have "hands on' experience to progress to the next level. Buy and invest in good books look the market and compare before commit yourself to buy an expensive item. Do not get fool by cheap deals an/or vague information and/or explains regarding the item an offer.

Some of us are more informed then others, because they invested money and time to get some level of knowledge and also they had some bad experiences in the past with fakes

Regarding the ways the fakes are created we can speculate quite a long time

Some fakes , like Ilieff  pointed out, are made with original parts to which  new modern parts were adapted.

It is known that a significant number of left over original parts were found and used for those kind of fakes.

The other purpose of those kind of fakes is to upgrade, for example Commander Class to a 1st Class Cross.

Also fake are created by butchering good Originals to match other Originals in order to create Sets of 1st and 2nd Class Awards or to create a rare Model like in the case of the Bravery Order 4th Class for Doctors and Clergy man.

Those types of fakes are difficult to recognise  just looking at the pictures. One has to hold them and investigate them using different simple methods - magnification, measuring, weighting and "needle test"

The other fakes were made with new parts only and they, at least for the moment, are much easier to spot

Whether the fakers use professional tools we only can guess. One is for sure they are getting better, because the demand is there on the market

This guy on Ebay is real crook

He is selling items from Bulgaria and Hungry. he is also suspect of  fake bidding to pump up the prices of the two Fake Military Order Stars

I am not sure whether he is using somebody account

Hi Binky,

I had the identical reply from the seller You have very good points and New World is right it is impossible to chase those guys

i know Dealers on internet who sell copies and they claim that they are Original and that they are not accepting any expert opinion from other Dealers .let alone to try to fight with those sellers on Ebay.

I looked the options to report the item s The Stars --- there are not any rules for fakes and copies.

The Ebay does not care about the fakes unless a big company threatens them to sue for forgery

That is why Ebay is a Golden mine for fakers and sellers of fakes -The only Rule is Bayer Be Ware

This guy is very Smart he khows the rules on Ebay very well -He Did not mentioned anywhere that the Stars are Original, Ho detailed description -only pictures to evaluate some very , and No Returns.

Al these are in his favour if there will be a compliant or a claim   ,,,and also is a strong proof that he knows what he is selling

At least, I hope the member of the Club are warned and they have to make their own decision.

Hi Binky,

Who ever is the seller he or She has to advice the potential buyers about the changes to the Stars

It is blunt wrong not to let the buyers about any alterations As collector we have to be honest with our fellow collectors

I recently sold 3rd Class 2nd Grade Bravery order i described it including any repairs.. That I felt is the correct action. The Buyer form Ukraine re sold it with asmal profit without mentioning the repairs It is wrong.

Regarding the 1st Class Star if you are the seller please test the enamel  it looks modern soft one and the anorexic letters are typical of the modern copies Also the murky picture on the reverse, compared with the relatively good ones of the obverse brings more doubt about the Star

The 2nd Class -I already expressed my opinion

I would never bid on such item. I had my bad experience as beginner and that is why i started this forum to help the fellow collectors to avoid my mistakes, especially the beginners

Graf

Hi

Yes That i said is a shocker The marks from left to right are supposed to be a French maker mark,, French hallmark for Silver "boar head" and the 950 mark is not supposed to be there at all  -all are wrong

I suspect the front looks decent because they might some original parts or copied them very good.

What is your opinion for the picture of the reverse of the 1st Class Star I still think it was borrowed from somewhere else It does not match the firs pictures...also It look quite familiar to me I might have seen it somewhere else

I sent a mail to the seller to advise the potential buyers So far he has not answered, neither he added any additional notes

He knows what he is doing, that is why he did not specify that the Stars are Original. Plus the details are next to nothing. There are already bidders Poor Suckers

Alert Two Fakes on Ebay

First is 1st Class Star of the Order of Military Merit with War Decoration

Very well known Fake with soft enamel plus the letters are very thin and superficial -already are 'fading away'

You can see the defects in the enamel as well

I also suspect that the last picture of the reverse is borrowed from somewhere else

Second is  2nd Class Star of the same Order

It is a shocker - especially the reverse The Fakers even included French hallmarks and maker marks - all wrong

The seller is from Hungary He claims that they come from his personal collection. No detailed description of the items

No returns Warning signs that he is aware of the nature of the Stars looked his history -not a single Order sold or bought before this sale ???!!!

Hi Camelneck.

It looks Silver with a very nice patina Sometimes the light can make the medal to look differently.

I am not quite sure whether all Orders of merit  are made of pure silver The could be as you said silvered bronze or base metal It is difficult to say just from the pictures. Some are marked for silver.Most  are not

The best advice is to request a close up pictures in different light. Look for defects and flaws Compare with other similar awards on the market The real one have very nice details The fakes are with less details and have some surface defects Because they are not very expensive It is very unlikely to be faked with perfection in mind

Graf

Hi Ilieff,

Thank you for the information

When i initially wrote the text it was very late at night and I did not realized that i made a mistake regarding the Order for Merit Since then i edited the text accordingly.

Regarding the two Gold medals Both of them came from Germany from a reputable sources and i believe that they are real. Both are have German mounting style ribbons one of the appear to be removed from a medal bar

I have not checked the metal yet. however i plan to do it in the near future.

I will take a photo on the back of the medals with a different view  Here is one view of the back of the medals

Hi Camelneck,

 you have very good points yes collecting is a very interesting and also could be very expensive. expensive.

Your approach towards collecting is the right one. First taste it with more common pieces, then get a good information before dive head first in to the deep waters of the collecting world.

Yes it is a good investment Many of the Military dealers have been collectors for a long time and tuned it to a business. They still collect.

Regarding the Medal for Merit i tried to give you as simple information as possible not to confue you too much, i also have seen the medal as part of medal bar to Military persons.

Best

Graf

Hi New World

I agree with you. Therefore i did not invest big $$ into them They are very rare and only by looking at the pictures of previously sold or from the books one can not have the idea whether they hold the real ones. Gold medals were made by fire gilding of bronze or Silver medals. Information which could be helpful when assessing the medals.

As i mentioned somewhere else i have not checked them yet about the metal they are made from.

Hi Yankee,

I know the Auction site. It is very nice one and i wanted to bid on it, however they do not have postage for outside of Sweden

Best

Graf

Hi Camelneck,

Both Order of merit and Medal for Merit are founded on 25th of December 1881 by Prince Alexander Battenberg

Medal of Merit comes in three Classes

1st Class Gold

2nd Class Silver

3rd Class Bronze

Order of Merit comes in two Classes

1st Class Gold

2nd Class Silver

Both are associated with the Order of St Alexander

Order of Merit is with the laurel and swords  II is military decoration and was i given for merit in war time and in piece time

The Medal of Merit is more civil Decoration and was given for merit and contributions to the throne.

There are few emissions of the Medal for merit

Prince Alexander  with no crown

Prince Ferdinand  few models the very first model is without crown, next model is with princely crown and later model with King crown ( the last two models came without crowns as well}

King Ferdinand- with crown and without crown

King Boris - with crown and without crown There is a model with an error -in the word Bulgarite there is a missing letter, however it is fair common model

Regency emission The Monarch image is replaced with a lion with no crown

Republican Emission as the Regency Emission plus  in addition the crown on top is replaced with laurel

The Order for Merit comes with no crown and have the same emissions

Prince Alexander  Note This emission comes only in Silver

Prince Ferdinand

King Ferdinand

and

King Boris

There are different models of each emission

Both decorations are worn on the breasts suspended on triangular red ribbon as Order of St Alexander or Bravery Order ribbon when given at war time

Both decorations do not have any enamel parts

This is a very general information but remember  Medal of Merit  -Three Classes Gold, Silver and Bronze and Order for Merit only Two Classes Gold and Silver   No enamel parts

I personally do not collect those decorations

i have only two Gold Medals of Merit Prince Ferdinand Emission with princely crown and King crown because they are rare and i was lucky to get across them

The Gold medals are very rare according to the existing information only 23 men during the 69 years period In my personal opinion their number is higher.

The price as you can assume depends on the how rare is the decoration and how old it is Also the condition and the presence of original box and Document

My personal advice is not to jump to buy now research the market and compare

Ebay is a good site, however look the reputation of the seller Same sellers put a high price, however they accept decent offers Some sellers want to sell quick and put low prices in the begging of the sale Be careful for fakes Compare few times before you  buy

eMedals is a good site, however he could be expensive Shop Bulgaria is another site to look into and lastly Liverpool Medals { be careful of the murky pictures}

On 12/2/2014 at 09:51, Yankee said:

A fine Napoleonic piece with an arched crown and solid crowns between each arm.

Maybe of German make, never seen another...........

Hi Yankee,

Here is another one sold recently by eMedals