Graf

Hi New World,

My apology

I just noticed that I made a mistake

I did mean Order for Bravery 4th class 2nd Grade without swords 1941 Model  I also share your opinion regarding Soldiers Cross, however we have to bear in mind that the Orders was given to medical persons and Clergy mans and in the army they had medical persons that are not doctors Simply because those crosses are not mentioned in any books we do not have to ignore their existence..we have to give them the Benefit of Doubt However as i mentioned I share your opinion till proven wrong

Hi Igor Ostapenko Can you show the sites of the Soldiers cross without swords.

Hi Camelneck there iare two nice books on Ebay USA for Bulgarian Orders and Decoration one is Prof  Pavlov book

and B. Denkov book If you are serious in collecting Bulgarian decorations you need a good books not just internet I can explain you a bit Order for merit and the medal for merit later on. I personally do not collect the i have only two Gold Medal for Merit -Prince Ferdinand Model simply because they are very rare birds

Hi New World,

Yes I did mean Soldiers Cross without swords I even did not look whether it was "adapted" by cutting the swords Or it was originally made without them

Here what i found on internet -This is a first Document i have ever seen to an SS Person awarded Bravery Order -It is an Soldiers cross,

Also i found on internet this very rare Document for the 3rd Class 1st Grade of the 1941 Order for Bravery it is the highest i have ever seen from this period It is given to a High ranking  German Officer (Colonel) Also the pfot of the officer wearing the Order

Hi Camelneck the Awards you are looking are not difficult to find on Ebay The Silver Medals for merit are not rare one unless you like to get ones that are from Prince Battenberg Period or the first Prince Ferdinand models with Princely crown The most difficult ones are the Gold ones.According to prof Pavlov only 28 were awarded Also the Military Order with War decoration  in low Classes is not difficult to find

Most of us are not restricted in certain period of collecting, however because due to many factors some of us have more Awards from particular period then from the other periods. personally I try to have a balance in my collection, however at certain points i have more from one period then the other ones. Simply this is the story of collecting.

Also some are more lucky to find rare "birds" then oters..or/and have more $$$$ in their pockets or/and more desire to obtain an Award at certain point

I remember an English Lord, who bought a very expensive items from an Action.was asked why he spent so much money for them. The answer was " One can say that they were more valuable to me then they were for the other bidders"

Hi Ilieff very nice photo. I regret that i did not bid on the 1941 Model Soldiers Cross for Doctors i am still looking whether at least i managed to save it in my files

Hi Camelneck,

You have good points regarding the soldiers crosses dated 1941 All of them i bought from Germany over a long period of time O own three of them One was from Ebay Germany couple of years ago. I know the seller of it. He is a serious collector and co-author of a German book regarding Bulgaria Order for Bravery ( including the Soldier Cross) I know where he obtained the Cross from.

He stated that in his opinion the 1941 Soldiers cross is less seen on the market then some of the very high Classes Bulgarian Orders

Because it  believed that they are produced in Germany and mainly given to German military personnel and none to  Bulgarians it explain that their are found in Germany Four pieces were sold  on a Auction few years ago as part of one of the biggest collection of Bulgarian Orders and decorations, which belonged to a  Bulgarian collector living in France.

Regarding the quality because, with the exception of 1941, other models were produced in huge numbers the quality may be from a very good one to very poor one Fakes - could be.. Fake 1941 very unlikely, because the fakers have to get the good quality

My advice - do not buy any that looks bad and comes without any ribbon Best to have an original ribbon.

Thank you Megan,

That was my information, because from two sources it was dated 1850 and 1860

Hi Yankee I have not seen a Swedish Order of the Sword with a such rosette.It could have been given to a French person

If the photo is from 1960 then the rosette is completely correct for the France Second Empire period 1852-1869

Award Document will be of help if there is strong evidence that belongs to the Order

Graf

Hi Megan

Thank you

I will appreciate any info regarding the date of this latest addition with double sided swords

As i mentioned my information is that it dates 1850-60 i have seen one for sale  The seller name is Tim

CCJ

You can buy it It is only 65 000 EURO It is for sale on Ebay Germany  or you can contact the Seller House of History Hamburg Germany He might sell it cheaper  I also believe that such items belong to the Military Museum in Sofia.

It is interesting to find out who put the items for sale on the Auction in 1989

 If it is King Simeon It is a shame He sold too many items on different auctions he is selling the history of Bulgaria.

I finally got this old  model

It is very interesting double sided swords model

Here are some pictures to compare

On 12/23/2016 at 20:00, ilieff said:

I've never seen anything like this. Are you sure this is the Soldiers' cross? Even though that there are numorous variations of miniatures, this one looks weird to me, plus, the two decorations are supposed to be bestowed upon different sort of army staff - as you know, the soldiers' cross is awarded to enlisted men, while the order of military merit - to officers.

If this is indeed the soldiers' cross, then the only possibility is that this gentleman has progressed from a private/corporal to lieutenant (or higher) in a matter of 2 years, which is impossible.

 

PS: All groups are marvelous, Graf. Congrats.

Hi Ilieff,

I found an interesting answer to your question

Apparently, the Soldier's Cross was awarded also to German Officers. I assume that the rule for enlisted men applied only for Bulgarians

Graf

Hi Igor

Here are 2 more pictures

Hi Igor.

It will be interesting to find out when they are awarded. Both 1st and the 3rd Class are with the Royal crown, that means that they might have been awarded during the Regency Period or at least one of them. There is a speculation that during the republican periods  the removal of the crown was done only  on  3rd  Class 2nd Grade and replaced with wreath. That means  a piece of 2nd Class with a wreath could be a 'fantasy' one

There  is  a lot of grey area during post war two period

Graf

Hi Igor ,

The pictures are very interesting finding From the Uniform I can see that the Bravery Order is a 1st Class

As far i know  no 1st Class was given during Boris III period and after 1944.

It will be very helpful if you can dig in the MG records to find out when he was awarded the Bravery Order

Hi New World,

Then our task is to ask for a side views and more information

..But then the whole Order will be fake - made with modern materials like the Bravery Order -3rd Class 1941 Model.

Here is a Modified Order with the swords cut off It is not a Bravery Order, however you can see how a good Order is butchered to increase its value The seller does not mentions anything about it, however the picture is self explanatory  Once i had similar butchered Cross and I returned it to the seller in UK.... you know him

This is my latest Order of the Sword

As far as my knowledge goes it is 1850 Model

Any more info?

Hi,,

Unfortunately, taet is the only picture of the "Swedish Collection" although the collector could be from any country. I t sent to me by a fellow collector from Belgium I zoomed it a little bit to help you

There is nothing strange with the boxes --just standard ones.

About the Order for Braver with 3 dots -1st Class was sold on  the 173  Kuenker Action.in 2010 On this Auction a 2nd Class from the same Model was sold as well See small differences in the crowns of the crosses

Interestingly it came in a box from the French firm  Marie Stuart, Paris, which could be a clue about the maker or one of the makers of this interesting Model. I have not seen the box, although.

Hi Ilieff,

It is most important to warn the collectors.

The Fakers will master their jobs, however if they have to deal with educated public it will make their task very difficult

..and may discourage them Hopefully.

The WW2  German Iron Cross is the most faked one. There are several books how do detect fakes, which help the collectors and fakes alike. However, once the collectors are more knowledgeable they are more difficult to be tricked.

That is why i started rhis Forum to help the new collectors of Bulgarian Orders and decorations to avoid mine and other "old' collectors mistakes

Yes, , Fingers crossed eyes open

It is difficult to mask a cut off sword They go through the central medallion and any attempt to mask will leave some traces of the repair  i will try to provide you with better pictures to see very well rounded edges of the central medallion and even patina.  Also the 1st Grade Doctors Cross is slimmer the the Standard Cross -no room for a swords As I mentioned the Doctors Crosses are smaller, slimmer and finer the the Standard ones with well rounded rims between the arms

I have seen "Doctors' Crosses with cut off swords it is impossible to mask the cut off site 100 %

Hi,

I have two Doctors crosses 1st and 2nd Grade.

Both they are  Original I explained somewhere in the Forum my opinion.

Both appear to slightly  smaller and finer then the Standard Crosses with swords, mainly the1st Grade, and there is no any signs of adaptations.

I will buy Doctors Cross only if it is made for the purpose. Any cross tha has been "adapted" by cutting of off the swords is not worth to add to your collection. I do not believe in this theory, that because they run off the purposely made ones. However it is your call  I will not buy such a cross

I have seen 1941 2nd Grade Cross for sale on eBay Germany 2-3 years ago It was sold by Prof. Pavlov son.

The main problem is that I cannot find in my files whether i saved it. Also I cannot recollect whether it was with cut off swords or not.More likely it was adapted otherwise i could have bid on it..but not sure

In my opinion New Word is correct.

It is Fake. The overall quality is extremely  poor for a very high class decoration. The combination of new looking poor quality decoration is an alarm bell ringing loudly

It is known that  after 1944 for the high classes "left overs" from mainly  the emission with the 3 dots were used  Only decorations for 4th class 1st Grade and 2nd Grade were made after the War

The high Classes were modified to fit the new regulations by replacing/modifying the central medallions and removing or replacing the crown with a wreath In some cases orders from the 7 dots emission were used and adapted

I remember  that the sellers  who used to sell on Ebay Fake Bulgarian decorations from the regency and the Republican periods used  for excuse for their poor quality the fact that they were made in private Bulgarian shops

Do not be fooled . In some cases we have to make our mind only by looking the pictures and we will not have  chance to return the Decorations if we discover that their fake. If in doubt keep away

Hi V. Vazov,

Jaeger7 is correct.

It was a practice when foreign Award was awarded a Translated version to be issued by the Authorities in the recipient country.

More over no one have ever seen a Bravery Order Document from King Boris period, especially for the 1941 Model

I can speculate that the Orders were send to the gerna units and they issue their own Documents for a proff for wearing. I suspect the Bulgarian Document should have been send later, however i doubt that has happened withe the events that followed.

Here are few examples

choose files... Click to choose files

Hi Ilieff,

The information and the analysis of it is very interesting.

I do not think that there is enough evidence to suggest that this is a specially made cross.

Fro all the facts in, my opinion, this is a rare variation of the the 4th Class 2nd grade Cross, which is seen in both models  -with the seven dots an-d with 1915 ( picture provided by Igor)

There are known two sub-variants with notched edges and with smooth edges of the cross arms and also with free standing swards and attached swords (the cross shown by Vazov and you). The fact suggesting that could be more then one maker or is only one maker who used different matrix.

The only fact is known that because it is much rarer on the market it is assumed that it is made in reduced numbers, which can suggest that it could be only one maker and for a very limited time.

Similar scenario do exist with the WW2 German iron cross, especially the early made one, before the LDO standard rules were introduced. There are few variants that are not marked and they are different to the other crosses

those variants are the "Rounded 3"on the year 1939  and the so called " Schinckel" form, which resembles in size and features the WW1 period made iron crosses but have the swastika  and  the year 1939 Plus there is a so called "Over sized' variant of the 2nd Class of the 1939 Iron Cross. All of them are variants made by makers not for special occasions at the early stages of WW2. However because they are much rarer then the standard Iron Crosses they demand higher prices.

The same can be said for the Bravery Order with the lilies

Hi New World,

i think in the very early stages the Order for Bravery was called Military Order.

i suspect once the Order for Military Merit was introduced the Order for Bravery  was called Military Order for Bravery  not to be confused with the new Military Order

as you can see during Battennberg period was called also Military Order only

for the first time you can see from the last pictures, from King Ferdinand period, was called Military Order for Bravery

Hi Vazov,

Most of the "old' collectors of Bulgarian Orders are familiar with this Dealer,

 He is still active, however, for some reasons he is not selling many Military decorations now days .

Yous finding, for the events are quite correct. I like your eagerness to explore new things.

We all did the same when we started collecting  Good on you.

I agree with New World, that this dealer liked to make up stories regarding the items he sold. Despite that he had good items and the site is a good for reference ignoring some of the information in the text.

Also some serious collectors have doubts about the originality  of some of the items, especially the medals and badges sold on this site

The 2nd Class Bravery Order "discovered' by you is really nice and looks very similar to the Cross from a 1st Class Set sold few years ago on 173 Kuenker Auction. The small difference in the crown form, can be explained that those Classes were made in small numbers and the makers used the parts available for the time of making the awards.

Here is a picture of someone's collection shown in a exhibition in Sweden. It is unknown to me collector

New discovery.

Document for the 3rd Class 2nd Grade given to German Officer This is the first i have seen for a high Class

closer view