Dave Wilkinson

Yes, I agree and I suspect that has always been the case. I worked with an old Sergeant many years ago who was a well decorated soldier from the 1939-45 war. He refused to wear medal ribbons on his tunic saying that it was an unpleasant period of his life that he wished to forget. I recall seeing him taking part (as a duty) in a remembrance day parade and he was bare chested. No medals or ribbons and he was clearly unhappy at being required to take part.

Dave.

See attached photo.

Dave.

Yes they would.

Dave.

No, its not Cheshire Const. They wore a distinctively designed badge which was totally unlike that illustrated. As I've already said, I don't think its police related.

Dave.

Peter,

Many thanks for the clarification.

Dave.

It is a mufti badge and has a "horseshoe" fitting on the reverse. If you look closely at the photo the bottom of the fitting can be seen.

Dave.

Well, anyone that was interested in the William IV truncheon from Aberdeen will certainly now be "upping" their bid! Forgive my saying so, but if you intend bidding on a particular item, its a good idea to, firstly not advertise that the auction is taking place and secondly, name the items you intend bidding on. Unless of course, you are acting for the auction house and seeking to advertise their business.

Dave. 

You are not the first to have enquired about this badge. It has been discussed previously. I personally don't believe that it has a police connection. Whilst its the same basic design as a 1939-45 special constabulary mufti badge, there the similarity ends. The green enamelled backing and the "CC" suggest to me a non-police use.

Dave. 

I should explain at the outset that I'm not, for a variety of reasons into truncheons. That said, having collected police insignia for nearly 45 years I have inherited (via various police badge collections which I've bought) one or two wooden and one metal piece which I've kept. As to your question I use two books, "The Book of Public Arms" by A.C. Fox- Davies and "Civic Heraldry of England & Wales" by C.W. Scott-Giles. Published in 1864 and 1933 respectively and obviously long out of print. However, there are one or two websites which are quite useful and which can easily be found using your search engine. I hope this is helpful.

Dave.  

Thank you for this very informative review of manufacturers in respect of the Irish Government etc. If I could just comment on your final paragraph. Jeeves Ltd. of Waterloo, Liverpool do indeed supply warrant card holders/badges for a large number of police forces in the UK and other countries. However, the manufacture of the actual badges is sub-contracted to a company in Birmingham. Jeeves do the leather work and any embossing and fit the metal badges on their premises before packing and sending to the purchasing organisation. The same with Wyedean Weaving. They don't manufacture metalwork themselves but sub contract. The metalwork is delivered to Wyedean who complete the product on their premises and then send to the force.

Best wishes,

Dave.

Its an offer they regularly repeat. I was caught out and registered for the free trial (I think it was for a month). Part of the registration process was the provision of bank details etc. I used the site several times and then forgot about it. When I received my bank statement I realised that for the previous five months they had been quietly taking cash (a monthly subscription) from my account. I complained like hell but they would not refund. At the expiry of the one month "free" trial there is no warning. If you forget to cancel (as I did) hard luck. If they wanted to give you something for nothing, why ask for your bank details? Simple, they want your cash. Go for it if you feel inclined, but watch them like a hawk and make sure you cancel before the free period is up. Of course, they will still have your debit/credit card details! I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

Don't go near it unless you are happy to pay. Its a "scam". You will need to register and provide your bank details. Guess what? They then eventually take cash from your bank account!

Dave. 

Those I have seen have all been A3. The staff at Scotland Yard who your mother spoke to were not likely to have been particularly active in collecting police historical items and indeed it is more than probable that they had never before seen one. If I were to walk into the Police HQ of my local force and take with me an historical police artefact from the 1920's with local connections and seek their opinion on it I can guarantee that there would be no one in the building who could tell me anything about it, and in all probability they are not likely to have ever seen one before. If your mother had sought out the curator of the Met. Police Historical Museum (not at Scotland Yard) then she may have been in receipt of more helpful information. Whether they are "rare" or not is really a matter of opinion. The late Mervyn Mitton (you say) opined that they were rare, my view (and I've collected police historical items since the 1960's) is that there are a few about based upon what I've seen of them. I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

There were several thousand produced and I stand to be corrected, but believe that those officers serving at the time were all provided with a copy. I have seen several over the last few years.

Dave.

Martin,

Personnel records for police forces in Lancashire (except Greater Manchester and Merseyside) are held at the Lancashire County Record Office at Preston. That said, they are not complete and none exist for several of the former Borough Forces. Insofar as "court" staff is concerned, until quite recently courts were administered locally by Magistrates Courts Committees. They are now administered directly by the Ministry of Justice. Details of the current courts in Lancashire are available on the web. Regarding George BRAGG. He would receive a defence medal if he served in the police during WW2. He would  not receive any police medals unless he was still serving in the early 1950's when the Police Long Service & Good Conduct Medal was introduced nationally. He would get one of these if he had served 22 years and his conduct during that period had been "good". If he served within the Borough of Blackpool he would have been a member of the Borough Police for that town. That said, he may have been a member of the Lancashire Constabulary, serving outside the town but in the Blackpool area.

Dave.   

I think you will find that John Ireland & Son of Dublin were retailers rather than manufacturers. It is important to bear this in mind when finding their name on an item of equipment or item of uniform. The first issue helmets (and the plates) were almost certainly made in England for John Ireland and retailed to the Irish Government bearing the name of the retailer as opposed to the manufacturer. This was (and often still is) the case with orders being sub contracted out by one company to another but with the retailers name appearing as opposed to the actual maker.

Dave.

It would be helpful if you were to indicate which city/town you are referring to. Riots were quite frequent in the UK during and before Victoria's reign (and indeed since). I know of at least three such events in different parts of the UK which occurred on a Sunday and were later referred to as "Bloody Sunday".

Dave

These badges were apparently made in two sizes. One for a helmet/shako and the other for a cap ? I have never been able to find out which Colony they are from. That said, I have found that the prefix "HM" tended/tends to be used in the Caribbean Islands as opposed to the other territories who tend to use simply Prison Service prefixed by the name of the territory. See the two examples which I have in my collection. I suspect that they were somewhat "generic" being used by more than one Colony/Territory.

Dave.  

Well, eBay is where you will find it. The forum is a good place to get information but its unlikely that you will find anything via this medium

Dave. 

Have a look at eBay. That's your best bet. No end of items are on there which fall into your collecting interests. In addition to sellers in the UK there are several in Australia which will keep your mailing costs down.

Dave. 

Graeme,

A very strange way of awarding a medal! Simply go to the stores, ask for one and they give you one (or two)!! Ah, but that is Trinidad & Tobago for you.....

Dave.

Trinidad & Tobago became a Republic in 1976 and the police would at that time ceased to be eligible for the award of the Colonial Police Medal. The British Crown was removed from police badges at that time and I suspect that this coincided with the "Republic" versions of various long service medals being introduced. Its interesting to see that they have retained the original Colonial Police medal ribbon on the new medal, that is assuming that the ribbon on the new medal is correct and not one simply "put on". Trying to confirm that with the authorities in Trinidad will be something of a "chore" if my own experience of trying to get information out of the is anything to go by!

Dave. 

With respect, not wishing to burst your bubble but it looks identical to the two I have which are brass. They are, considering Edward's short reign, surprisingly common. I don't know how many Prison Officers were employed in 1935/6 but judging by the number of these badges which are about I would guess that they must have had a good few hundred supplied.

Dave.

Try an enquiry with the National Archives at Kew, London. The original paperwork for the award of the medal starting with the written recommendation from the Trinidad Police Commissioner through to the Governor of Trinidad and on to the Colonial Office should, in theory still be held at Kew. That paperwork should give full details of his service up to the time of the award recommendation. Insofar as the authorities in Trinidad are concerned, I would tend to agree that any attempt at dealing with them is like trying to knit fog. I contacted them several years ago on the subject of the badges which they had used in the past and was equally frustrated by their inability to assist me. I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

Mervyn,

Thank you for your kind comments (and also to Mike).  Yes, Vic Wilkinson has had sight of them. Vic has many Metpol. items I don't have and vice versa, so its swings and roundabouts. 

Dave.