Dave Wilkinson

Mike,

I was not going to attach any photos but you did ask!

Dave.

Mike,

See the attached photos. The "unnamed" QVC badge is purportedly from the Commissioner's horse furniture but I've been unable to confirm this either way. There are, as you can see, two different patterns of the "named" QVC badge. Alas, the EVIIR version is a poor example. The final photo shows a representative grouping of QVC helmet plates etc as worn in the Metropolis itself (not the Dockyards or River).

Dave. 

Your informant is incorrect. The Metpol. have produced the full range of horse breast badges from VR to the present day, all showing the words "Metropolitan Police". The Metpol. Mounted Branch ay Imber Court have a small museum which has exhibited a short lived EVIIIR version. This particular version is the only one which I am missing from my collection. The brass coloured item which you show is a generic military horse breast badge. I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

If this worries you to the great extent that it appears to, then I would suggest that you (or someone on your behalf) make a Freedom of Information request posing a number of questions, the answers of which, if provided, will enable you to satisfy yourself one way or the other. As an aside, the Commissioner carries the "can" for any departure from the norm as it is he who certifies that the criteria and terms of the Royal Warrant (as amended) is fulfilled.. This is notwithstanding the fact that he relies on information (in paper form) which is placed in front of him.

Dave.

You need to understand the process which takes place which eventually results in the Royal Mint "issuing" (if that is the correct word) a Police Long Service & Good Conduct Medal. That process starts with a Certificate being signed by the Commissioner/Chief Constable confirming that the Officer concerned has completed the required period of service and that during that period his/her conduct has been exemplary. The certificate is then then forwarded to the relevant Secretary of State who authorises the Royal Mint to provide the medal. The named medal is then sent to the authorising Secretary of State who completes a Certificate and then sends this, together with the named medal to the requesting police force who will then arrange its presentation. If there have been errors then those errors have been made by the respective police forces. I would suggest that the intimation that the fault lays with the Royal Mint and its staff is spurious, to say the least.

Dave     

The photo indicates that your band does NOT appear originate from the City of London. I say that because the buckle seems to be white metal. If the band originates from the City of London the buckle would be brass. It is something of a misnomer to suggest that the City of London Police were the only force to wear red and white duty bands. They were worn (until the 1970's) in Jersey and by the former Hove Borough Police (1858-1943) to name just two. There were probably quite a few others.

Dave. 

The unpublished manuscript  "The History of Metropolitan Police Uniforms & Equipment" by Wilkinson & Fairfax says:-

"Armlets - Sergeants and constables 1886. Issued with new pattern of alternate blue and white stripes of equal length".

I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

A fantastic series of events and outstanding gallantry. I'm sure that there is some further research you could do in respect of the Officers involved. I feel sure that STEVENSON would have received some further award(s) apart from those which you have and which he would have received anyway irrespective of this incident. If you go to the Liverpool Record Office in William Brown Street and look at the Liverpool Watch Committee minutes for the period I am sure that more will be revealed. Archive copies of the Liverpool Echo would also be worth searching. The list of things you can do to put some further "meat" on this excellent group is endless. I would have had no hesitation in buying these medals and I think you did the right thing in doing so. Additional research would certainly add value without a doubt. I for one would be interested in hearing how you get on with that. Thanks for sharing.

Best wishes, Dave Wilkinson   

Very interesting. But, firstly who was the recipient of the medals and secondly what is the concluding part of the story?

Dave.

The emblem in the centre is military in origin. It is NOT not Dublin Police, Royal Irish Constabulary or any other Irish Police force.

Dave. 

Dave - I was always under the impression that they had abolished the Riot Act. When you took part in the Liverpool Riot , did

the Police have to accept claims for damage caused during the Riot ? Perhaps it was that bit that was changed ? Also, did

they still Read the Act in order to declare it a Riot ? Interesting details ? Best wishes Mervyn

Mervyn,

The Riot Act of 1714 was repealed in 1967. The Riot Damages Act 1886 is still in force. The offence of "Riot" itself is now set out in Section 1 of the Public Order Act 1986. There is no longer a requirement for a public announcement or warning to be made or given. Yes, in the event of a riot (the fact that persons are charged with the offence is sufficient) then any claims for damage must be considered by the Police and Crime Commissioner for the police area. Essentially, they have simply dropped the requirement to "read" the Act.

Best wishes, Dave.

TERM "CUSTODIAN"

I know this point has been touched on earlier in this, and at least one other thread. Can anyone definitively state when the term Custodian was first used, and exactly where it came from? As far as I can make out, it was one of several proprietary names, that are probably not more than 40 years old, including, Custodian, Guardian, Centurion, and possibly others. Somehow, it seems to have turned into the semi official name within the service, and has become retrospectively applied to any police helmet of a similar design, including early British, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian helmets that never had this name applied in real life. Wikipedia even includes Italian helmets and other white (cork/pith) helmets that are actually based on old British and French military designs, that are certainly not derived from the 'custodian'. I don't think much of Wikipedia as a source, but a quick search of the net suggests pretty much any journalist discussing police helmets has been to that page, so it can't be ignored.

Any thoughts?

The term "Custodian" is a trade marked name used by C.W. Headdress Ltd. I agree that it appears to have been adopted by many individuals to describe a police helmet irrespective of its age. However, that in my view is quite wrong. The Wikipedia page which talks about police helmets is incorrect in a number of respects, this being one of them. Re-enforced "public order" police helmets began to appear in the late 1970's but I think that C.W. Headdress began using that name in the 1980's. With regard to the term being used by the police service generally, I think that is understandable in that most if not all helmets currently being worn are the re-enforced "plastic" type the majority being made by C.W. Headdress who appear to have the market share of supplying forces.

Dave.

Thankyou Megan. The Act was abolished some 40 years ago. I took part in the last major Riot case, this took

place at the Old Bailey. They were trying to destroy the Sth. African Embassy and I was on my way - off duty to post a letter at the 24 hour post office next to St. Martin's in the Fields. As I got caught up with the mob, one of them threw a dustbin through the windows of the Duncannon Arms - adjoining the Embassy. I followed and when we were near Police lines I called 'Police' and pushed him through. He was one of 9 charged - but the number of lawyers involved caused confusion and in the end they were all discharged. Mervyn

Mervyn,

Although the Riot Act itself was repealed in 1967, the offence of "riot" still exists as an offence in the UK. Whilst you probably took part in a "riot" prosecution, it was most certainly not the last. In the summer of 1981 serious rioting took place in Liverpool and in other large mainland UK cities. Prosecutions for riot look place then (I was involved in one such case whilst a Merseyside Police Officer) and have almost certainly taken place since. Don't forget that Northern Ireland was and indeed still is a part of the UK. I don't think I need to elaborate in respect of the rioting which has taken place there and which has resulted, over the years in numerous prosecutions for "riot". Sorry to "split hairs".................

Dave.

The Holyrood House ones are quite distinctive - if my memory is correct. I am beginning to think that you have something far rarer -

just possibly, the Gatekeeper or, more probably, the High Steward of a large Scottish Estate. If my surmise is corrrect it will probably

be a Titled estate. With English large estates the landowner would be the local magistrate and a tipstaff would be in front of him

when he sat as such. With Scotland - and it's history of Staves (or Staffs - the word is a plurality) I would not be surprised to

find this on the Bench to show his authority.

Now, where do we go from here ? Just a personal approach - I would have a nice leaflet witha variety of pictures of the staff -

and send it to every Scottish museum asking for their help. Also, the author of a history of Scottish tipstaffs and truncheons died recently. At this time I can't remember his name - however, I expect some of our members will have bought the book and will

be able to give details. There just might be a mention of this type of staff ? Best wishes Mervyn

Mervyn,

The late John Green is the gent who published the book on Scottish Police insignia etc.

Dave.

It would have been an RAF style blue/grey fleck shirt without epaulettes and patch pockets. To be strictly accurate it should have a detachable collar with stud front and back. If his tunic were removed the shirt would obviously be visible together with probably braces to hold up his trousers.

Dave.

Posted as a pdf file. Hope you can see it.

Its a helmet plate. If you go to the website "ozbadge" yoiu will find a comprehensive site dealing with all Australian Police insignia.

Dave.

Dave - I unquestiongly accept your explanation for this photo - I don't know if Donald Rumbelow is still active in collecting ?

I am sure he found this mistake embarrasing - however, they do happen. I will correct the notes under the photo. I will

say that you have good eyesight - much better than mine................... Mervyn

Mervyn,

Although I have his "I spy Blue" book, its many years since I glanced at it, but did so several minutes ago. He credits both photos as being from "The Times". I may have noticed the error previously but have to admit that I've never drawn his attention to it. Indeed I've never had any contact with him. He's certainly not (to my knowledge) ever been a member of PICA or similar. I saw the photo for the first time many years ago in a small booklet published in the 1940's by the Chief Constable of Liverpool in which he set out a brief history of policing in Liverpool. I suspect that the original copyright for it rests with Liverpool City Police.

Dave.

019.JPGclick

City of London Police Constable Parsons. 1850

020.JPGclick

City of London Police Constables' Uniform Prior to 1865

Mervyn,

Your annexed photo which you caption "City of London Constables Uniform Prior to 1865" is unfortunately incorrect. It actually shows a Liverpool Borough Constable. The City of London Police have never worn a belt plate, in addition you can see the Liver bird badges on his collar. Finally, the photo is one which appears regularly in publications dealing with the early history of Liverpool City Police. I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

Thanks Dave, how long was the additional R in use for? Was it be worn on the collar too?

The letter "R" together with the divisional letter/number was worn on the tunic collar and on the helmet plates. The designation on helmet plates continued until approx. 1935/6. At that time a slightly re-designed helmet plate was introduced featuring the GvR cipher in place of the letters/numbers.

Dave.

Hey chaps, I'm sharing a couple of illustrations here which I have produced based upon research using old photographs, and scraps from regulations where I could find them. These may not be perfect but I am hoping with collective input to make these into useful online references for those starting out with an interest in British Police uniforms, other periods and other forces may be covered if people can provide information!

These images are quite easily edited and I am posting them with the intention of updating them as more details come to light, hopefully forum members will be able to help and also point out any errors I have made.

With regards to these first two I am particularly interested in confirmation/correction of dates, details on any dress uniform for Met Inspectors (supposedly similar to the Super's uniform?) and in addition details of more senior officers in the City Police and any dress uniform Inspectors may have worn.

Senior Officers in the City Police when wearing No:-1 uniform did not wear external sword belts. Canvas belts were worn beneath the tunic with the sword suspended on a hook attached to the concealed belt , the hook being accessed through a "slit" in the left side of the tunic.

Dave.

From this photograph (even though uniform in 1930s) I think the City Police wore a silver chain as well??

I have also found a photo of an Inspector's dress uniform from the City police.

This is a very good website about City Police Uniform and Equipment.

Zeb

http://citypolice.tripod.com/CityofLondonUniforms.htmuniform4.jpgfig.73.JPG

The City Police have never worn chrome fittings on their uniforms. They were either brass (pre. c.1970) or gold anodised (post c. 1970). This is notwithstanding the chrome chain shown in the photo.

Dave.

Found this in a google image search, rather answers my question! Lovely painting.

http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antique/19th_century_portrait_of_police_sergeant_wilkins/as226a062

And a shot of the plate:

Not sure what the ER signifies?

"E" Division reserves.

Dave.

Yes, the disc has the name engraved on back of the chap who carried it along with his title. The badge is Scottish hallmarked silver to the 1940s. Quite a nice thing.

Are you going to share that information with us? Perhaps you would also post a photo of the reverse.

Having collected police insignia and some associated material for some fifty plus years now I've always been tempted to collect truncheons. In the early days I was "caught out" by a fraudster and ever since that experience has taught me to steer well clear of them and that would be the advice I would give to anyone who contemplates going in that direction. I've no doubt that others would disagree but that is honest my opinion.

Dave.Wilkinson

The Lancashire "plaque" is just that. The badge is a plastic replica of the helmet plate which n its actual form is manufactured in chrome plated metal and soft enamel.

Dave.

I have read the thread through several times, and the recurring problem I find is there almost universally seems to be a large jump in pictorial evidence of how things were done in the Met Specials between the early WW1 war period (usually just civvies with Duty Armlet, whistle, truncheon and lapel badge or cap badge) to the early post-war/WW2 period, with evidence from the late WW1 period where they were increasingly being uniformed much closer to Regular standards being almost non-existent which is very frustrating.

The subject of stripes is also confusing to me, since period photos of them being worn as rank or otherwise in the Met or other forces seem to show different sorts at different times. The example below is a late 19th century photo, and appears to show the narrow braid sort:

http://postimg.org/image/7mzrbuatf/

Later photos occasionally show very chunky white on dark backed stripes:

Others such as:

http://postimg.org/image/81jgueog3/

and:

http://postimg.org/image/wjg5w1geb/

Called away will sort the gaps out in a bit.

The second photo down shows members of the Hertfordshire Constabulary. Again, of no relevance to the issue being discussed. As far as I'm aware the Met. always wore "thin" Russia braid stripes (as still worn today) on tunics. On overcoats (final photo shown) the stripes were as shown (black worsted on a white felt backing).

Dave.