Dave Wilkinson

The question of Metpol. SC uniform is complicated as you have discovered. The last photo you post shows a Newcastle-upon-Tyne police officer. I'm not quite sure why you have shown this but I think you should ignore the style and badges etc on his uniform for obvious reasons. Your original post says that you were charged duty (presumably VAT) on the item when it arrived in the UK. I suggest you lodge an appeal. It should not be difficult to prove that the jacket is over 100 years old and as such it is exempt from such duty. That said, you will still have to pay the Royal Mail "handling" fee. It is always wise to try to explain to sellers (who are abroad) that they should correctly complete the customs dec. stating clearly that the item is antique and is British made being returned to the UK (where appropriate). Best of luck in getting to the bottom of your mystery. As an aside, I have a large number of Metpol. SC cap badges of different styles and periods but have never seen an example of the version you are referring to with a slider fitting.

Dave.

Mervyn,

The Mersey River Police ceased to exist on 15th February 1920 and at that time the strength was 1 Superintendent, 3 Coxwains and 14 Constables. The displaced men were absorbed into the land divisions of the City Police. With regard to Reg Hale's research, yes he did privately produce a 43 page book which gave details of his discovered non-Home Office police forces which had existed since 1829. He was kind enough to send me a copy (which I still have). Unfortunately it is not dated but from recollection it must have been sent to me about 15 years ago.

Best wishes, Dave.

Hi - Ross. My apologies that no-one has answered this interesting post. I have never heard of this unit - although it stands to

reason that Liverpool would have a Harbour Unit. I can't think of his name off hand - used to live in Chelmsford. He and a

colleague worked out just how many small police forces , harbour police and canal police had existed before 1829. Ran into the hundreds.

With the two holes for stitching, I am assuming that this was a collar badge ?

Ross - seeing this has reminded me of the Vic. helmet. I'll get someone to look it out so that it can be sent.

Best wishes Mervyn. ps. Let us know about other pieces that have come-in to your collection.

Mervyn,

Just to clarify. The Mersey River Police were not a "stand alone" police force. They were a division of the Liverpool City Police and were administered along similar lines to the Thames River Police which were and are an integral part of the Metropolitan Police. They were all members of the Liverpool City Police who were posted for duty on the River Mersey. That said, rather unusually they were provided with their own distinctive cap and collar badges. The collar badges in my collection have loop/lug fittings on the reverse and are also drilled as per the photo. The individual whose name escapes you is Reg Hale (now deceased) and he lived in Cheltenham.

Dave.

There are dots in the Cornish coat of arms. could it be Cornish Constabulary.

Paul

Paul,

Yes, that did cross my mind. However, the "dots" on Cornwall's shield (they are actually "bezants" or golden roundels) are 15 in number. Also, Cornwall Constabulary produced a series of badges (of similar size and shape) which were clearly from that County (showing the full shield with a dark blue background) and either "SC", "PWR", "PMAS", WAPC etc. So, I don't think, on the balance of probabilities, it is connected with Cornwall. In fact, if I'm honest, I don't think it is police related at all. As an aside, the enamel background to the "CC" is actually GREEN and not the usual police dark blue.

Dave.

Morning Badger. Apart from the obvious possibilities - Carmarthen, Carnarvon, Cambridgeshire etc., I would

suggest you look at Australia. The stars could make it a possibility. Ask our Aust. coll. in the pinned section,

what he thinks ? Mervyn

There are no stars on it. They are dots!

Dave.

Thankyou Jean-Paul.

The only question that occurs to me - does this medal cover the various State Police Forces - or, is it for the

Federal Police ? Mervyn

If you read the posting and the attachments you will see that it applies to all Australian Police Forces.

Dave.

Excellent news, Jean Paul. Good for you for doing the campaigning.

I don't think he did any campaigning. He's simply copied/pasted an announcement made by the Australian Prime Minister.

Dave.

Gratefull for information on the captioned white metal star badge,worn apparently on the sleeve.

Purpose ? Worn on one or both sleeves ? Duration of use ? and etc.....

My Thanks - Dave

Dave,

These stars were awarded to those who had presented themselves for attestation in the Metropolitan Special Constabulary BEFORE midnight on 31st December 1914. They were worn on the left forearm only. For those ranks of Inspector and above the "ring" surrounding the centre and the centre itself was enamelled dark blue with the wording "Metropolitan 1914" and the inter twined "SC" centre showing in relief.

Dave.

Hi Dave,

Good eyes, I can see it now but even so only because you could read it, so I'm using some imagination along with my old eyes.

Thanks very much for the additional information, I will be sure to record it for other near-sighted collectors of the future.

Regards

Brian

Brian,

Not quite. I have the helmet plate , but the telling factor is the helmet itself. It's rather unusual top was unique to the Dorset Constabulary. So, my eyes are probably no better than your's. I'm glad to be able to ID it for you.

Regards, Dave.

The Figure Of Eight Handcuffs Pouch in wear.

The wearing of police gear today.

Hello everyone,

I would like to discuss a couple of topics with this post. One is the leather pouch for the Figure Of Eight Handcuffs featured in a previous entry and the wearing of police gear on the duty belt today, especially handcuffs.

First the photo below is of an unidentified police officer wearing a leather handcuff pouch similar to the one in my previous post. The main difference is in the closure device. This one look like a dome and button while the RIC pouch has a tab that once inserted through the pouch flap is turned to lock the flap in place. The helmet in the photo shows a King’s crown and the only wording on the plate that can be made out is “County Constabulary”. I used magnification of different strengths and even my biology microscope and have found that the helmet was on such an angle as to leave the lettering of the municipality badly out of focus. However, we do know the officer in the photo is serving in the post Victorian era and that he wore the pouch in the front.

Today the police office can be seen, at least here in Canada, to be wearing the handcuffs case on the side or even at the back of the duty belt. With all of the gear that the modern police officer wears it is no wonder that, locally at least, it is referred to as the “Batman Utility Belt”. Officers in the past decade have taken to wearing a leather harness-style suspender system to take the weight of the belt off the officer’s hips. At first this seemed to be ridiculous and was just a fad that would never be accepted into the regulations. This has changed and now several police services have allowed the harness. Anyone who recalls the weight of the belt complete with side arm, asp (extendable baton), pepper spray, rubber glove pouch (or CPR pouch), handcuffs and the good old three cell Mag-Lite knows what hip joint pain feels like. Before I get too carried away with the gear in general I’ll get back to the handcuff pouch and where it is worn today.

When the officer is on foot patrol, or on a bicycle, wearing the pouch in the middle of the duty belt just below the small of the back works fairly well. It is out of the way of the rest of the gear and still easy to access, especially with the newer nylon pouch and Velcro closure. Now take that same officer and put him or her into the cruiser, or patrol car, and the location of the cuff pouch becomes a whole different matter. For those who have never experienced this less than pleasurable sensation take a carpenter’s tape measure, a twenty-five foot size is best for this experiment; clip it on your belt at the middle point of the waist at your back. It feels not too bad and I have worn one in that location on many a construction project in my distant past. Now jump in your car, truck or mini-van and drive to the corner store and back. Now you know how a handcuff pouch in that location feels to the police officer.

If you are stopped by an officer in a cruiser and you notice that the cuffs are at the side then you may have some room to plead your case for exceeding the speed limit. However if the case is worn in the small of the officer’s back simply apologize and tell him or her that you were wrong and were not paying attention to the speed limit posted. With luck maybe you get off with a warning, however, argue and...well...lets just say...DON”T ARGUE!

I’d like to hear for other officers, either current of former officers, on wearing your gear and your experiences.

Regards

Brian

Brian,

A old thread which has just been re-activated, hence my seeing it for the first time. I know nothing of handcuffs but I can tell you that the Constable in your photo is a member of the Dorset Constabulary. Indeed, that is the wording on his helmet plate.

Dave.

I would concur with the other replies. The tunic was still being worn well into the 80's and even with the issue of the more practical jumpers and short coats was still worn for court appearances and performing court duty and other more formal occasions.

The shoulder number is known as the clothes number and is not the officers actual force number. It was simply there to identify whose tunic was whose. It was common for officers to write there actual force number on the inside label however.

The letter 'R' does indeed signify Reserve, of which there were Part time and Full time officers mainly engaged in security duty.

Regards

I find the term "clothes number" a difficult concept to get my head around. Surely the object of a number on a police uniform is to identify the individual wearing the uniform to any person who wished to comment upon the actions of the wearer, adverse or otherwise. If it was simply to identify the item of clothing, then what was the purpose of the letter "R", or indeed Sergeants chevrons. Whilst on the subject, what about Senior Officers? I know that all members of the PSNI now display numbers on their uniform. But, Inspectors and above in the RUC did not display numbers............So, how were their clothes identified without a numbers?

Dave

Guys,

I doubt I will find any other variations on the theme as I am in Germany, both these found here. The latest is from a broken collection but the rusty one is a house clearance find and makes me wonder if it is a souvineer from the Channel Islands. Of course I will never know but I thought these were civil police items unlike MP or were there civil police over in Germany perhaps post war for re-training? Sadly there were no other military items German or British in the household.

Jock:)

Jock,

Following the end of the Second WW a large number of UK police officers were sent to Germany (and former occupied countries) as part of the British Control Commission. It seems reasonable to assume that they took with them British police marked steel helmets and this may be a possible source. Of course your suggestion of a memento from the Jersey or Guernsey Police (Channel Islands) is another possibility. It is a pity that there was no practice of overtly marking them with the name of the town or county that they related to. That said it is almost certainly the case that the outside markings would have been stipulated by the UK Government so as to standardise the outward visibility of such helmets when police were sent to different parts of the UK as part of mutual aid detachments. Finally, yes you are correct in assuming that they are civil police helmets. They would not be worn by the military.

Best wishes, Dave.

Jock,

If you find rank badges "painted" then I would take care in assuming that the markings are "original" and as issued. Over the years I've had a number of these helmets through my hands. In all cases those which have had rank markings have had such marking shown on the front (usually above the word "Police") and those markings have been in the form of a transfer or decal (not painted). In addition I've never seen any marked as such on the back of the helmet. For higher ranks the base colour of the helmet was white and not blue.

Dave.

See the attached photo.

Dave.

Yes, it is a helmet plate for the City of London Police. It should be painted black and the Divisional letter is missing. This type was worn between 1914 and the early to mid 1970's. It is NOT military.

Dave.

The first item looks to me like one half a cape fastner. The other half will be a mirror image of the badge shown with the addition of a chain attached which would stretch across to the other badge and the end link would slip onto the hook.

Dave.

The badge suggests a "generic" version which would have been available for purchase by one of the hundreds of small UK fire brigades (including the many private & industrial set -ups) which existed pre. second world war.

Dave.

Its always fraught with danger to assert that an organisation is the oldest or second oldest in the world. Someone will always come out of the woodwork and challenge it. Such is life.............

Dave.

Thanks for the replies. Ive managed to find the collar devices, and Im now keping an eye out for the insignia for the epaulettes. Can anyone explain what exactly was worn on the epaulettes. Some pictures Ive seen show a letter over some numbers. -Jeff

Jeff,

For a Constable the epaulette would consist of his force number. These were (I think) four metal numbers mounted on a bar in chrome. The letter which you refer to would be "R" (Reserve).

Dave.

Just for info. I received no reply from the Cyprus Police museum in Nicosia.

Max,

The lack of reply does not surprise me and mirrors my own experience when seeking information from police forces at home and overseas. Regrettably, the problems of today and tomorrow concern them more than their own history which I suppose can be expected. You may have better luck with the National Archives at Kew but may have to pay for any information they hold.

Dave.

Although the British Transport Commission Police existed in that name for around about 15 years, they had during that time quite a variety of badges. The appended photo shows an almost complete "set" apart from two others which I believe exist and which to date have escaped me.

Dave.

Those Officers etc who are shown in the illustrated Police Almanac entry for 1951 will be members of the West Riding Constabulary (Dewsbury Division) and not members of the Dewsbury Borough Police. There will be a stand alone entry for the Borough Police.

Dave.

Max,

My apologies for the delay in replying. I'm sorry but I can't answer your question. I'm sure that an enquiry with the Cyprus Police or alternatively the National Archives at Kew may bring forth an answer. Probably the National Archives would be a better bet as I suspect that unless the current Cyprus Police have a historian or an individual serving with an interest in their history then your enquiry may go unanswered. Best of luck.

Dave.

Heres another Cyprus Police question , I saw a GSM clasp Cyprus awarded to 6119 CSC ( cyprus special constable ) D.Hunter. So the naming is 6119 CSC D Hunter. Was it the British government who administered Special Constables, as he has a European name its fair to say that he was a resident and volunteered as a Spec Constable ? Or would he have been under the Cypriot Police control.

Thanks for reading this

The British Government administered the Cyprus Police as part of the Colonial Police Service prior to independence and the special constabulary would have been an integral part of the police.

Dave.

Jeff,

The uniform you have would have been worn latterly on formal occasions only. Up until the mid seventies it would have been worn on the street with the addition of revolver holster/belt etc. However, the subsequent rise in terrorism in Northern Ireland saw it being replaced by more practical garments, ballistic vest, sweater etc. such as that shown in the photos you mention.

Dave.