Dave Wilkinson

"Nearly every County Force has it's own Musum and proudly displays it's history - why should the Metropolitan Police - who started modern Policing in 1829 , see it's treasures being left

in boxes to deteriorate." Mervyn

Alas, this is not the case. Most of the police museums which did exist (and there were very few) have now closed due to a lack of either finance or lack of premises. Whilst I am an avid police historian I take the view that it is not part of the remit of any police force to maintain a museum. Arguably, most senior police officers of today are interested (quite properly) in what is going to happen tomorrow or next week and not what happened in the past. We have a national army museum and an imperial war museum and even a national railway museum. Why don't we have a national police museum? It is not for individual police forces to set up and maintain their own and to use police funds in the process. That cannot be justified in the current financial climate, indeed its doubtful if it could be justified at any time. Police forces exist to proving a policing service nothing else. The task is one (in my opinion) for central government.

Dave.

No doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I am fairly certain that the Garda Siochana has never used the rank of Chief Inspector.

Dave.

Robin or 219PG,

He looks like he has had an eventfull career, grenades are not your everyday occurance, would he have been decorated for that, if not he should have been.

As ex police I ask you why was he not selected for promotion or is this not like the military?

Is this a personal choice within the police as I can't imagine he would not have progressed otherwise?

Regardless its a very long time at the front line and I hope he gets to travel!

Regards

Jock:)

Jock,

In the UK police officers aspiring for advancement are required to take examinations. Firstly for promotion to Sergeant and secondly for promotion to Inspector. Advancement beyond that is on merit (and often whether your face fits). However, passing the examinations does not mean automatic promotion! I knew two Constables during my service who were qualified for promotion to Sergeant and Inspector. But both, completed their service as Constables. One in particular took and passed the examinations simply to show his bosses that he could do so, but stressed that he had no interest in advancing any further. The second, although able to pass the examinations was totally incompetent. In fairness to him, he knew his own practical limitations and again did not seek advancement. In the UK we do not promote Police Officers simply because of their long service, we require a little more than that.

Dave.

Peter,

To add to the confusion, you have to consider whether the negative (if there was one) has been reversed prior to publication. I've noticed that this is frequently done (not on this forum) giving the impression that the medals are worn on the wrong side. We're probably better leaving it there otherwise we will get ourselves totally confused!

Dave.

Jeff,

Then the insignia above the shoulder title would consist of Bath stars, and or Crown and in the case of the Commissioner, his Deputy and Assistants, crossed tipstaves within a wreath. In addition the last three mentioned ranks would wear appropriate gorget patches on each lapel. Below those ranks the Crowned Kenya Police lapel badges would be worn with the lions facing inwards towards the throat of the wearer. Many (but not all) British Colonial police forces adopted the same rank insignia as worn in the UK. The fact that it is a bush jacket suggests use by a Gazetted senior officer as opposed to a lower rank.

Dave.

Rod,

Thanks for your reply. The original question was asked by 1314. He wanted to know what the medal was that is on the LEFT side. I guessed that those of the right would be awarded by the Australian Government and suggested that those on the LEFT would be awarded by non-Government organisations. Incidentally, you have a very nice collection of Australian police insignia!

Dave.

Ref posts 30 and 32 - Queensland Police Mess Kit. Male and Female.

Interesting to see miniature medals worn on both lapels,Not the usual practice in the UK military or police circles ? I wonder what are those on the left (as viewed) ?

In the UK medals/ribbons worn on the left of tunic by the military and police would be those such as the Royal Humane Society, Liverpool Shipwreck & Humane Society, RSPCA and similar.

Dave.

Jeff,

Chrome plated shoulder titles "Kenya Police" would be on the bottom of the epaulette and above would be Bath stars/Crown depending on the rank of the wearer. However, this could differ depending upon whether the jacket was pre. or post the Colonial period.

Dave.

Well done Pete! Another couple of items preserved for posterity. Knowing you as I do, I know that if and when these medals leave your possession they will do so in company with the story of George's outstanding piece of work. Its a pity that his CC's Commend Certificate has become separated (presumably) from the medals.

Dave.

Peter,

A fantastic group of medals to a brave and determined Palestine Police Officer.

There is a Joseph Lorton listed in the 1861 Census living in Bedford with a d.o.b of 1851 I would guess that he is our man.

Do we *know* that this is the only version of the collar dog ever worn by Bedford Borough?

The Victorian & Edwardian collar badge for Bedford Borough Police was as shown in my photo. This was later replaced by a simple King's Crown which was worn through to amalgamation. It is also worth bearing in mind that Bedford Borough, in Victorian period wore the normal Met. style striped armlet, whereas the photo of the bobby shows him wearing an armlet with horizontal stripes. Is the guy Lorton the man shown in the photo? I don't think so. The mystery continues...............

There is an out of focus picture of a Beford Borough QVC helmet plate on the PMCC website. The collar dog in this photo does resemble the centre device on the helmet plate. So I wonder if he was an ex Bedford Borough man?

Nick,

No, the collar badge worn by Bedford Borough (see attached photo) was of a very distinctive design and is clearly not the badge being worn by the bobby in the photo.

What I can tell you is that the individual is not wearing Bedfordshire uniform. Bedfordshire Constabulary never wore collar badges and the guy in the photo certainly is. Are you sure that he is a Bucks. officer? The name of the photographer is a good clue but they often travelled and the town where the photographer is based can sometimes be something of a "red herring".

Dave, you had me worried for a moment in case I had mis-identified the senior uniform officer. A quick check confims a crown and a pip on his shoulder.

Nick,

If he had a Crown and a bath star on his shoulder then he would (in those days) be a Superintendent Grade 1. A Chief Superintendent would have a Crown above two bath stars and a Superintendent Grade 2 would have a single Crown.

The Deputy Chief Constable of Oxford would have been a Superintendent Grade 1. So, if what you say is correct then they have by accident or design got it right, certainly insofar as his rank insignia is concerned. However, if he is being referred to as a Chief Superintendent then alas, they still have it wrong! Oxford had (at the time of the amalgamation) two Supts. One was the DCC (Supt. Grade 1) and the other was the Supt. of the Cowley Div. who was a Supt. Grade 2.

The rank markings for Superintending ranks changed (I think) in the early 1970's to that which we know today in consequence of the two separate grades for Superintendent being abolished. When I say this I am referring to provincial forces in England & Wales. I do know that in Scotland they had (at one time) one or two unusual ranks which were not used south of the border That also applies of course to MPD ,City of London and Northern Ireland who also retained a degree of individuality in respect of their rank system.

The producers of the Endeavour series seem to have got their act together after last week's pilot episode and the uniforms are now pretty much spot on. However there is a distinct lack of salutes from Pcs in the presence of a Chief Super'.

And a question for the old sweats. Helmet chinstrap: under the chin or grazing the bottom lip?

I must confess that I have long since stopped watching police related dramas, as I simply get "wound up" by the inaccuracies such as those mentioned here. Hence I've not seen any of the "Endeavour" episodes. However, if they are suggesting as part of the script that there was an officer of Chief Superintendent rank in the Oxford City Police then that is something else they have wrong! I've just looked at a copy of the Police & Constabulary Almanac for 1968 (the force amalgamated on the 1st April) and the Oxford City Police is shown as having a Deputy Chief Constable (below CC) with the rank of Superintendent. To be accurate he was Superintendent Leonard North. Perhaps the lack of salutes has something to do with the fact that he did not exist?

Isn't everyone above Sgt. called 'Guv " ?

Err.......No. Not even in the Metropolitan Police!

Regarding the Northern 'Celtic Knot' badge.

I well remember that, as a rookie at Tulliallan back in 1978, I thought that everyone wearing this shoulder badge looked like an ACC!

Oh Robin! You will certainly upset Dave Conner now...............

Despite the views of the new Scottish Chief Constable (Stephen House), I doubt very much if the national structure is likely to see the light of day south of the border in England

I'm not so sure. Though I'm not from a policing background it is interesting to compare the attitude of police officers of the present day with those of previous generations. I get the impression that most modern officers consider themselves to be officers in The Police rather than as officers of a local - well regional - force.

I would be willing to bet that the Home Office and the ACPO ranks enthusiasm for standardization of uniforms across England has less to do with saving money (the sums are trivial) and more to do with creating a nationalised image in advance of consolidation.

Nick,

There are political reasons why I believe it will be a long time before we see a national police force in England, if ever. You have to have the political will and it is not there at the moment. Also, you will find very few ACPO ranks advocating such a move. The reason? It would be proffesional suicide to do so. Most would loose their jobs if a national force was formed as has been the case in Scotland. Its okay for Stephen House to advocate such a move, He's got the top job! Finally, don't forget one long standing anachronism in English policing. The City of London Police. Numerous attempts have been made to consolidate it with the Met. over the years and all have failed. The reason is because powerful politicians with City connections have indicated that they would stop such a move. In fact I would go as far as to say that I think that hell would freeze over before the City Police met their demise.

Sorry, Dave but you are wrong.

Albeit the first issue epaulette was so completely chromed that it was difficult to discern the detail (simply it was TOO shiny), this was easily corrected in future issues

NorCon black.JPG

and indeed the design lent itself to also a very presentable (I reckon) lapel badge as worn by Northern Constabularty Community Pipe Band.

BADGE - Scotland - NorConPB.JPG

There was even an embroidered version of the shoulderbadge - which needed to be simplified to suit, given the size (approximately that of a florin!!)

NorCon embr-v2.JPG

and the much larger badges look really smart - namely the short-lived wallet/name badge (blue and chrome) , and the Pipe Band Glengarry Badge (black and chrome)

The design, which was retained as shoulder insignia despite the corporate rebranding in 1996, must have been OK, as there's a lot of my former colleagues got quite emotional at having to remove it from their uniforms yesterday.

The design was in use from 1st October 1979 to 31st March 2013 - and of course remains in use by the Community Pipe Band.

Dave

Northern Constabulary officer (from force creation in 1975 to 2003)

Northern Constabulary Community Pipe Band (from Band creation in 2002- 2013, and still gong!)

Dave,

It's all a matter of opinion! I visited Inverness several years ago and saw both the epaulette badge and the small cloth badge being worn. I knew what the design consisted of but had that not been the case I would have been none the wiser. I have examples of both and again (in my opinion) the design is so convoluted it tends to convey nothing really other than confusion. I'm referring to force issued items and not tie pins etc. The wallet badge was indeed a credit to the force. That said, why produce a very nice badge at great expense and then hide it in a wallet so that no one can see it? Perhaps that's why it was short lived. Fife similarly produced a series of warrant badges, The last issued one was quite striking - but again hidden away where no one could see it. "Fob" badges saw a short period of favour in Scotland but again they for the most part faded away after a short time. It is as if one part of the organisation wanted to shout its identity whilst another was hissing "shush, they may find out who we are...." The cash expended on all these short lived excursions would have been better spent on producing a decent cap badge for each individual force instead of the very poor looking (in my opinion) national badge. Oh, and before I finish I must mention Tayside Police. One Chief Constable the had the audacity to order the introduction of an enamelled version of the Scottish national badge with a scroll below indicating "Tayside Police". A well made badge which fulfilled both force and national identity. It was short lived and was replaced by the "el cheapo" national version when he retired. I await with interest to see what next is produced from a badge point of view in Scotland. They already have a national badge so in theory (if they want to save cash) they need not do anything. That said I've heard a rumour that someone has already splashed out on a design which has been rejected by the Scottish Herald. I watch with interest........

I have no doubt that the same emotion was felt all over Scotland, as the various forces paraded for the last time. Albeit that 6 of the 8 were "only" 38 years of age (D+G was unchanged at regionalisation in 1975), they all engendered a spirit of cameraderie and produced an extrmely high level of professionalism - which will be carried by forward by the Police Service of Scotland.

I served in Northern Constabulary from its creation on 16.5.1975 until my retiral in October 2003, and as Secretary of the Northern Constabulary Community Pipe Band from its founding in 2002 until the present time, so - technically - I can claim the full 38 years service!!

Dscf1006a3finalwee.JPG

The badge of the Northern Constabulary was an interesting one, but (alas) far too complicated and intricate to "translate" into a chrome plated metal badge and which when produced as such and affixed to an item of uniform looked like a chrome "blob" with no detail whatsoever available to anyone remotely interested in examining it. A great pity.

PS - I designed this thing, way back in time. Happy days!

A very nice Coat of Arms! It's a great pity that the Chief Constable/Police Authority did not have sufficient pride and spirit of independence to produce a decent cap badge to display their achievement. Too late now.................

As a collector of police insignia, the Scottish Police have always been a great disappointment to me. The adoption of the "national" badge many years ago I feel was the start of a downward spiral of local identity loss and although individual force names (albeit regionalised) were retained there always seemed a lot of "sameness" about them. That is a collectors view and in no way detracts from the professional service which the individual forces provided to their communities, which at the end of the day is all important. Spending large sums of money on introducing a new corporate image etc is not in my view a good start. Your average man or woman in the street does not give a jot about the wording on a police vehicle or the sign above the door of a police station, He or she simply wants a professional response from the police when they need it, and I'm sure that in Scotland that will continue.

Despite the views of the new Scottish Chief Constable (Stephen House), I doubt very much if the national structure is likely to see the light of day south of the border in England. In quite recent years Cumbria and Lancashire Constabularies went to the Government saying that they wished to amalgamate and presented a blueprint with costings to facilitate the merger. To great surprise it was not approved! Wales I personally feel, (with its own Parliament) could follow the Scottish lead. We will have to wait and see.

No, you are wrong in your assumption. The following is taken from the book "Maintaining The Queen's Peace", (a History of the Birkenhead Borough Police) by S.P. Thompson, published in 1958 by the Birkenhead Watch Committee.

" APPOINTMENT OF COMMISSIONERS.

In 1832 there was violent opposition to an application to Parliament for an Act to supply a public market and to establish police in Birkenhead. Despite this opposition the Act received Royal Assent on 10th June 1833............................The Commissioners proceeded to carry out the provisions of the Act and a Police Force was appointed. The Act continued in force until the incorporation of the townships of Birkenhead, Claughton, Tranmere, part of Higher Bebbington and Oxton into the Parliamentary Borough of Birkenhead on 13th August 1877".

So, the Birkenhead Borough Police was formed in 1833. The Cheshire Constabulary were formed on 20th April 1857. An earlier Act dated 1st June 1829, allowed the Cheshire Justices to appoint "Special" High Constables and "Assistant" Petty Constables and to pay them. However, this did not constitute the formation of the Cheshire Constabulary (taken from the book "To the Best of Our Skill & Knowledge", a History of the Cheshire Constabulary, and published by the force).

Cheshire Constabulary policed Birkenhead for the first time following the amalgamation of the Borough Police on 30th January 1967.

I hope this makes the situation a little clearer for those interested individuals.

Brian,

The additional points which you mention are well made. The "Chief Officer" badges are easily identifiable in that they are usually marked "sterling" on the reverse or are actually hallmarked and because they are silver and prone to tarnishing they tend to appear "dull" when placed alongside a chrome plated (Inspectorate ranks) version. Such badges were commonly issued to ranks above Chief Inspector in many English & Welsh forces but the high cost has in most cases resulted in the expensive silver badges being replaced with the much cheaper silver plated or chrome plated versions of the same design. Alas, a sign of changing times!

Dave.

Just think the Governor General signed every single one of the award certificates, 30,000 of them......

Mike

He obviously has quite a bit of time on his hands then!