Dave Wilkinson

The last of the three is what I concider a gem in my collection. It is the Chief Officer's Hat Badge. Both the blue and the green areas are enamel and the badge is held on by two claws. Once inserted into the cap these are bent (not spread) as the claws are one piece, not two, like the Officer's pattern shown earlier.

Brian,

I've been looking back through your postings in respect of Staffordshire Police and came across this one which is not altogether accurate. What you have is not the Chief Constable's cap badge but a warrant badge which is issued to every officer in Staffordshire Police. The badge is affixed to the leather warrant card holder. The green & blue "enamelling" is in fact plastic. If you look at my attached photo you will see the warrant badge (which you have) on the right hand side. On the left hand side you will see the "ACPO" (Chief Officer) ranks cap badge. This is in sterling silver with hard fired enamelling and a felt backing to the Staffs. knott. This particular badge was given to me by a Staffordshire Police Assistant Chief Constable who I was fortunate to meet when on a course at the Staff College in 1989. This is the badge being worn by Chief Constable Kelly whose photo you append in another of your postings. I hope this clarifies things for you and others who may have mistaken the warrant badge for a senior officers' cap badge.

Dave.

A timely warning to those interested collectors who may see similar UK police items being offered for sale on a well known internet auction site, the seller being based in Bulgaria. Be very careful about touching any apparently genuine UK police badges being sold (He also offers military badges) . They are almost certainly Bulgarian made recent reproductions. The seller has his feedback configured in such a way that "buyers" cannot be identified. I've always regarded (a personal opinion) this as a very suspicious tactic. Forewarned is forearmed!!

Dave.

Dave - with these early pieces so much depended on the whims of the Chief Constable. I have no idea why this design

was picked for just one area. Within the deep recesses of my memory, I do seem to remember seeing a cross belt - it

may well be a confusion with something else and I must be honest and say that most pictures don't show this. Perhaps

right at the beginning when it was first introduced ?

There has to be a reason why this shape was adopted - and of course , it has similarities with military cross belt whistles.

I sometimes find that the Chief Constables were ex-Military and tried to carry over their military past. One must always

remember that Ch. Const. who wanted to introduce artillery to control Riots. The Home Secretary had to stamp on that one.....

Mervyn

Brian has sensibly said keep this to British - but that would be Police and Military + any others.

Mervyn,

I appreciate the points you make. However, I have photos of Liverpool City wearing top hats and carrying rattles and similar with whistle chains showing but no sign of a cross belt. I think the cross belt theory may have been an assumption made by someone way back in the mists of time and as with many such assumptions with the passage of years they tend to become cast in cement. The shape of the whistle may have been a whim of the CC, perhaps a simple explanation was that the "lipped" version was more expensive. Whatever the explanation, the purchase and issue of this unusual shape persisted for a great many years with the "lipped" version making its appearance with Liverpool Police just after the first war. Even then the "oddity" was not withdrawn and I can recall occasionally seeing them on the end of a chrome chain still being worn by older Liverpool bobbies in the early 1970's. They are certainly very common and thousands upon thousands of them must have been issued. On most days if you do a search on that famous on line auction site you can usually find two or three for sale.

Best wishes, Dave.

Hi - Muckaroon - good to see you posting , and a topic that could have a lot of mileage. Let's hope members will

add from their collections.

I will show some Police examples - some quite different to the Hudson patterns you show above. Hudsons were the

main manufacturers of most whistles, lamps and restraints . Parker, Field and Sons were the official armourers to the

Metropolitan Police and commissioned most items from Hudsons. When my Police book was published Hudsons

bought - I think - 30 copies to send to their agencies overseas.

The early Constabulary and the Night Watch carried a rattle in the early days - whistle came into use in the 1880's.

However, the military had been using them much earlier - usually, the pea type and often with a military button on

each side. Sometimes, the entire whistle will be carved from a soft wood such as Pear.

We must also remember that the Royal Navy used Bosuns Calls or, Whistles for hundreds of years. I am sure

someone will post pictures of these.

This was the pattern for the City of Liverpool Police in the 19th Century. They wore a crossbelt - similar to the Army

and this whistle was pushed into a leather holder over the chest.

...................................................................CT 3299.jpgclick.........................

Mervyn,

I've collected police insignia, photographs and memorabilia from my home City of Liverpool since the early 1960's and have never seen any evidence that Liverpool City Police Officers wore a crossbelt with the whistle pushed into a holder on the belt. Photographs (and I have a very large number) indicate that whistles were worn normally in the tunic or greatcoat pocket as with other forces. The only crossbelts were worn by the Mounted Dept. when wearing their ceremonial uniform and even then the whistle was worn with the chain exposed and the instrument itself placed in the pocket of the stand collar tunic. Why Liverpool issued this type of whistle is something of a mystery. I often wonder where these myths originate!

Best wishes, Dave.

That's very kind of you Dave, thank you. I signed copy huh? Brilliant. Rather than discuss the vulgar subject of money here can I PM you?

Indeed Mervyn

A friend of mine highly reccomended your book and during the same conversation expressed his frustration that there are not more out there like that.

I'm having to pick up bits and bobs off the internet and the sage words off contributors here. No offence to anyone however it would be nice to have something tangible I can pick up and put down.

Monty

Monty,

I've sent you a PM.

Dave.

Andrew,

I've managed to obtain the same helmet plate. I suspect we share the same supplier.

As a side issue, PC 171 H arrested a man outside Commercial St nick during September 88, he was becoming abusive due to the fact his mate had been arrested (I suspect this was Pizer aka leather Apron).

So you have a little back story to your chosen collar number.

Mervyn,

Where and how can one obtain a copy of your book?

Kind regards all,

Monty

Monty,

If all else fails I have a nearly new signed copy of Mr. Mitton's book which is surplus to my requirements.

Best wishes, Dave.

Hi all,

A friend has come across an 1880 photo of a very young PC with a Collar no SW12.

He initially felt it was a Met PC due to the photographer coming from Pimlico.

However I've never seen a Met SW collar prefix. I suspect its South Wales or a specific duty PC.

Any help will be gratefully received.

Many thanks

Monty

Monty,

You can discount South Wales. South Wales Police was formed on 1st June 1969. Posting a copy of the photo may assist.

Dave.

Dave:

Not quite. Below please find a picture. The insignia for the commissioner was a crown and tipstaves as photos of Woods show and the uniform (with the exception of a sleeve badge) identical to the one of the British Police (please see pics below). Again, he was the first person who held this newly created position.

The photos of Sir Colin which you have attached are helpful and I think I may be able to take this forward a little further for you.

I think that the tunic you have is probably one which once belonged to Sir Colin. However, I don't think it was used by him whilst he was in the Met. Police. I think that he had this tunic made when he was appointed Commandant of the Police Staff College, Bramshill. The Commandant was at that time also an HMIC. He would have worn the uniform of an English Chief Constable with the addition of the "HMI" monogram between the Crown and wreath. You may find traces of these having been removed. Now, why do I say that the jacket may be from this period? Well, the town of Aldershot where the tailor is from is not far from Hartley Witney where the College is situated. Anyway, that's my theory. He probably took the jacket one of perhaps several) with him to Australia and wore it there for a time. I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes, Dave.

Dave,

thanks for the input. I was only mentioning the QPM and 1980 as this might indicate that the tunic was worn after that date as the Commissioner of the Australian Federal Police. The combination of ribbons is very unusual and only fits Woods.

I think it unlikely that this uniform would have been worn in Australia as I feel certain that the colour of the cloth differs and also I think the rank insignia. Another matter springs to mind and that concerns shoulder patches. Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong but I think that all the Aussie forces wear shoulder patches (all ranks). I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

My understanding was that UK (England & Wales) Police rank Crowns had a red cushion, and that only Scottish ones had blue (although that the latter was fairly recent). Certainly virtualy all the UK specials enamelled lapel badges I've seen (generally the only coloured police badges on the go over the years till recently) had red enamel cushions to the crown.

St Edward's Crown (that associated with the reign of the current Queen), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Edward%27s_Crown and

the Imperial Crown (referred to as King's Crown in insigna matters, or Tudor Crown) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_Crown

both have red cushions.

"Commissioner" ranks in the Metropolitan Police have blue cushioning to the rank Crown and have done for a great many years. The colouring upon the Crowns of other items of insignia used by police in England & Wales is normally (but not always) red. The tunic suggests use by an English/Welsh Chief Constable. NOT an HMI. If worn by an HMI then there would be a monogrammed "HMI" positioned between the Crown and the wreath . I'm unsure of the relevance of the Queen's Police Medal being mentioned or the year 1980.

Dave.

Police Officers from the UK home police forces were seconded as volunteers for service with the Cyprus Colonial Police Force during the conflict and were usually promoted by one rank for the duration of the secondment. In other words a UK seconded Constable would serve as a Sergeant with the Cyprus Police and would revert to his previous rank on return to the UK.. The seconded officers were awarded the General Service Medal with Cyprus bar. As far as I'm aware all the seconded officers were from the UK. Your medal was in all probability awarded to a UK police officer.

I hope this is helpful.

Dave..

If it is on the collar of a tunic jacket it probably indicates "Hampshire Constabulary".

Dave.

Brian,

I appreciate that this thread is VERY old, but I have only just happened upon it. Your photograph of of a member of the Lancashire Constabulary. The "old" County Arms are depicted upon the belt plate. The supporters on the arms are (unusually) two dogs. The first aid badge on his arm reads "Lancashire Constabulary". I hope that eventually getting an answer to your long ago posed question was worth the wait!

Best wishes,

Dave.

It isn't Jack Warner, though it is his own back garden and he was more than digging for victory in there!

I don't know what planet Mervyn is on, its CHRISTIE!!!!

Dave.

Mayne and Rowan - the first two joint Commissioners carried Gold identification badges and these have continued to the present. The Comm. and the Deputy Commissioner are still identified by a gold pass - and in addition they are both still sworn in as JP's (Justices of the Peace). This was very necessary when a magistrate was required to read the Riot Act in public - and the Civilian ones had usually made a run for-it ! At least you could push the Comm. forward and hold him in place.

Mervyn,

I hope you will forgive my correcting you. The Commissioner, Deputy Commissioner and Assistant Commissioners are no longer Justices of the Peace. The Administration of Justice Act 1973 which became law on the 1st April 1974, amended the Metropolitan Police Act and removed the JP appointment from them. Also, tokens/passes (of whatever type of metal) are no longer issued. The Commissioner now has a warrant card (signed by himself) which is fitted into a red satin lined black leather wallet. The wallet has inside it a silver and enamel representation of the Metpol. Coat of Arms. This same style wallet is carried by all ranks above and including Commander. No other identification is carried. The law relating to the Met. Police has changed considerably in the last 30 plus years. The force is now overviewed by a Police Committee (not the Home Secretary) in much the same way as the County Police forces of England & Wales.

I hope this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Dave.

The final sentence should read "An excellent example of the Victorian helmet plate NOT being replaced immediately following her death."

Dave.

Gents,

I've attached above a photo of a Metpol. helmet plate issued to a reserve Constable. It can been seen that the "O" is in fact a divisional letter as opposed to a figure "0". The syle and size of both the figure and letter differs. As an aside, this sealed pattern of helmet plate was approved for issue by Commissioner Henry on 2nd November 1906. Obviously, by the time they had been manufactured and issued I suspect that it would have been well into 1908 before they appeared throughout the MPD. An excellent example of the Victorian helmet plate NOT being issued immediately following her death.

Dave.

The photo is of an unknown officer who appears to be proudly displaying a Queen Victoria Jubilee medal with bar and a 1902 Coronation medal. At first I though that he may be a Met officer, but the Divisional letter appears to be 'O' with a number of 132.

Getting back to the original question:

The 'mthyical' O Div was used in 1911 for the pensioners who rejoined for the Coronation of King George V. I use that term because it wasn't a physical Divison as such but just an allocation for rejoiners. Most were in fact posted back to their original divisions. The warrant numbers they were allocated seem to continue (roughly) from those used for the pensioners who rejoined in 1902 for Edward VII's Coronation. So by 1911 they were in fact already past the 2000 mark. So could it be that it is a 0 rather than a O?

I have checked the numbers for 1902 and the number 132 was allocated to a PC William Claydon who rejoined as a pensioner on 10/6/1902 - and served with R Div (Greenwich). However he must have been stood down (because the Coronation was delayed due to the King having appendicitis) as he rejoined yet again on 07/08/1902 with the number 2433 and swerved with R Div. Whether he had already changed his collar to 0132 and didn't bother to change it again because the event was imminent I don't know. However the photo must have ben taken some time afterwards as he wouldn't have got his second medal until at least the end of 1902

If he is definitely a Met officer then that is the only explanantion I can offer. It would be nice to see a bit clearer scan of the photo.

Steve,

I'm ex. Liverpool Parks Police, Merseyside Police and finally Port of Dover Police

Best wishes, Dave.

Steve,

I would guss that the photo would date from the 1st war and he obviously saw duty at the Coronation. If you go on to the Metpol. website there is a section on history with (I think) details of where to direct enquiries about service records etc. Failing that try "googling" "Friends of the Met. Police Museum". that should point you in the right direction.

Best of luck.

Dave.

Steve,

He is a Metpol. officer. The "O" letter was used in respect of men who were recalled from retirement for duty during during times of emergency General Strike etc.I have an actual helomet badge showing an "O" letter.

Dave.

Brian,

These type of badges (for want of a better word) have been produced depicting various emblems of current police forces in the UK. In some cases they have a "loop" at the top and are affixed to a leather backing and oft described as "horce brasses". They are novalty items and are money making ventures by individuals who often have no connection with the force themselves.

I'm glad to hear that the cash outlay was small!

Best wishes, Dave.

Well done Dave - my memory wasn't so bad, I had remembered the rectangular shape - although I think the earliest ones had it sideways. They started with the first two joint Commissioners. The rank of DAC has appeared and disappeared several times over the years - didn't it come back in the 1970's ?

Mervyn,

Silver Tokens.

The Metpol. official website says that they were introduced in 1919. This is confirmed in the book "The Official Encyclopedia of Scotland Yard" (Fido & Skinner) who go on to say that they were issued to Commissioners, Assistant Commissioners and Deputy Assistant Commissioners. The text suggests (but does not definately say) that they are still issued. However, I know from information given to me personally by a DAC who was serving in that rank post 1993, that this is not the case. He did attempt on my behalf to discover when they ceased to be issued, without success. No one appears to know and Police Orders are silent.

Deputy Assistant Commissioner rank.

Again, the Metpol. website quotes 1919 as being the date the rank was introduced. The above quoted book suggests continual use to-date. However, the "Police & Constabulary Almanac" for 1956 makes no mention of the rank under the Metpol. entry for that year. So, your suggestion that the rank has had intermitent use seems correct.

Best wishes, Dave.

Photo now uploaded.

Dave.

Im not sure but I don't think he is a Policeman. He is not wearing a whistle chain from his button to his pocket and he has no Divisional numbers on his shoulder. The corporal stripes which could be for Acting Police Sergeant look far to big. A wild guess but I think he is a Royal Marine?

Craig

I agree totally. He is not a Police Officer. The collar badges are not Royal Marine's so another regiment but don't know which. I suggest re-posting on the UK Military section of the site.

Dave.