Dave Wilkinson

I have a number of "still" period photos of Metpol. bobbies doing duty at the 1953 Coronation of EIIR and they are all still wearing GVIR helmet plates etc.

The Met. at the moment have significant organisational problems which are not going to go away any time soon, and that will keep their top team busy. Also, I'll wager that they will have thousands of new unissued EIIR badged items of headgear in store and I can't see them ditching all that in to-days depressed economic climate. They may not in fact be the first to change. I'd suggest that one of the smaller forces is probably more likely to win the race. 

In a conversation I had with a Metpol. Assistant Commissioner several years ago, he told me that any force wide change of a particular item of uniform took on average three years to achieve. It's impossible to do in the short term because of finance, supply chain issues and the sheer logistics involved. 

Dave. 

It's an Interesting thought Mike. That said, by the time that EIIR came to the throne in 1952, apart from India, Newfoundland and a couple of other places, the British Empire was still largely intact, with the St. Edward's Crown being widely displayed and worn. It was 

only in the 1960's did Britain begin to see the "Empire" shrink through colonies and territories achieving independence and even then, many retained the Queen as head of state, and indeed many still retain the King as such although that will no doubt change in the fullness of time.

Now, if CIIIR had decided to revert to the style of Crown commonly depicted during Victoria's reign that could indeed be interpreted as making some sort of statement along the lines you suggest.

Dave.

Whilst this thread is many years old, and no one has replied to the question posed in the last post, I can tell you that the Islander in question was Terry PECK CPM. Terry was a former Chief of the Falkland Islands Police and after the invasion assisted, in a number of ways, the RM's in the days leading up to the invasion. I think he was awarded the MBE for his efforts and possibly a SAM. He died several years ago. 

Dave.

I agree, the writing looks like De Havilland.

Dave. 

I've read somewhere recently, that King Charles will not be depicted on medals or coins wearing a crown. There has been that much said about him of late that I can't recall where that was stated.

Dave.

I doubt there being any in existence yet. His approved effigy has only just been released (in the last 10 days or so), and it's probably too soon for the dies for the medal to be sunk and for them to be struck. The RM will be up to their eyes in it, not just with the police issue but with others. I don't think the Coronation process will result in a further change to his effigy, so the first design will be it.

I got a certificate with mine. Ironically, it's not dated. Whether that's an accidental omission or what I don't know. I've not seen anyone else's certificate to compare.

Dave.

The fact that you've been told by the HR Dept. that the medals are produced on demand casts a question mark over the info. given to you by "Liverpool Medals", that they are produced in bulk by the RM and then sent to another contractor for engraving.

It was always my understanding that they were ordered and produced by the mint on an as required basis. That was what I was told when I got mine in the 1990's. "The Secretary of State has approved the award of the medal which is being produced by the Royal Mint. When it arrives, I will arrange a formal presentation". My award was a "single" one for the force (Port of Dover Police). There were only one or two eligible there each year. 

Dave.

I suppose the 50/50 split is accounted for by the recipients being of either English or Welsh descent or whether perhaps they are Welsh speakers or not. A complex issue which would require some considerable research to get to the bottom of I guess.

Dave. 

50 minutes ago, bigjarofwasps said:

Thought this might be of interest? 

I qualify for my LSGC on the 14th October and retire on the 31st October.

On the 31st August my HR department very kindly agreed to pre order my LSGC prior to my qualification date, so that I could be presented with my medal in my last week. 

A few days later, as everyone knows the Queen sadly passed away.

Today, I was asked to contact my HR department, upon doing so I was informed, that they were very sorry. But they had been advised that their request re my medal, had been declined. The reason being that the Royal Mint were currently processing all personal who had qualified for their LSGC’s prior to the Queens death. 

That all recipients after that date, would be awarded the new King’s effigy medal, and that as such my medal, fell into this category and as such would now not be ready by my final week. But would be forwarded onto me in 6 weeks.

Would be interested to hear, if anyone else has been told this?

Gordon,

What a shame! I don't suppose there is very much you can do about it. The only consolation is that you will fall into an exceptional group of individuals who are the first to receive a LS medal with the King's head. At least you won't need to search for an example for your collection. From what you've said it seems that you were only able to achieve your 20 years qualifying service by the skin of your teeth. Thank goodness for that!

Dave.   

1 hour ago, NickLangley said:

City of London perhaps, but that's the Corporation of London; they are a law unto themselves. As for the rest who is going to put up a fight?

 

Welsh forces will have "Hedlu".

 

It's happened before: Scotland.

The Scottish national badge was introduced in the 1930's. However, right up to the 1970's some Scottish forces continued to wear their own force badges. The national badge was a "suggested" badge not a mandatory one. Of course, Scotland now has a national force and it follows that they wear a national badge.

The design of the PSNI badge is enshrined in an act of parliament and cannot be changed without a change in the law. They are, by law prohibited from displaying overtly any badge except those defined in their act. 

The Home Office has tried twice, in 1935 and again in the 1940's, to standardise uniform and insignia. It largely failed on both occasions. So, unless they seek to promote legislation requiring a mandatory standard police badge for England and Wales, I don't think it will happen.

Dave.  

27 minutes ago, NickLangley said:

I'd be willing to bet that the Home Office will use this an opportunity to continue its long-term "stealth nationalisation" of policing by using costs as a reason to introduce a standardised cap badge/helmet plate to be worn by all forces.

Well, I wish them the best of luck in their efforts. If they believe that one force in particular, the City of London Police, will bow to their attempts, then they are seriously deluded. No, I don't think so............

Dave. 

I think there will be a restricted issue of the Coronation medal along the lines of the 1953 Coronation medal and the 1977 Jubilee medal.

The King has told those involved in organising the Coronation that he expects it to be much reduced in comparison with his Mother's, having regard to the serious economic difficulties facing many people.

Dave. 

Speaking from the police perspective, I can tell you that for the 1953 Coronation each police force in the UK received an allocation of Coronation medals based upon the authorised establishment of the force. That does not mean that each member got one, it simply means that the Govt. allocated a certain number as a certain percentage (I don't know what that was) based upon the establishment. The decision as to who got the medals was left to the Commissioners/Chief Constables. 

Liverpool City Police, for example sent 1 Superintendent, 7 Inspectors, 16 Sergeants, 155 Constables and 2 Detectives as mutual aid to the Metropolitan Police. Making a total of 181. The Chief Constable subsequently received 150 Coronation medals for distribution to his force and I can tell you that of that number about 30 medals went to men who actually attended the Coronation.

A similar "system" was adopted in respect of the 1977 silver jubilee medals. Each force was given an allocation and the Chief Constable decided who got a medal.

So, if there is a restricted distribution of Coronation medals for King Charles, I would suggest that the police will be allocated along the lines of those set out above.

Dave.

8 minutes ago, bigjarofwasps said:

Another interesting reply on the BMF reads….

 

“I have had sight of a document that forces send to the home office stating that they do not have a full time member of staff dealing with medals, and they should order them at least 6 weeks before they are required. It also lists the official ranks that are acceptable.

With regard to the Welsh naming, South Wales Police (which is the biggest Welsh force) still haven’t put a mechanism in place to offer the option to officers. I have spoken to a number of colleagues who would have taken this option my self included.”

 

 

Interesting. Do Welsh forces not request their police medals via the Welsh Government or does the devolved assembly not have any responsibility for policing.

South Wales would soon get their act together if someone there returned their medal and demanded that it be re-issued with Welsh engraving. I'm surprised that the S. Wales Fed. reps have not bottomed that one.

Dave.   

I would not take this info. at face value but would seek to have it confirmed by someone. A further FOI request to the RM posing several direct questions.

1. After manufacturing, do you name/engrave medals?

2. If the answer is "no" when did you cease to name medals? etc.

Along those lines.

Part of what Liverpool Medals say is certainly not correct. Medals are not sent to the recipient. As far as I'm aware they are sent to the Government Dept.  (with delegated powers under the Royal Warrant) that ordered, and paid for, the medal. It is then sent to the force who requested that the award be made.

As I said earlier, a step by step outline of the whole process would answer this and several other unanswered questions. 

Going back to the reply the RM gave you. It's interesting that they do not say "We do not name medals".

Why on earth they are not more helpful is beyond me. It really is like pulling teeth!

Dave.

There are two possibilities. Either someone at the RM can't be bothered to deal properly with your FOI request (quite probable), or, as you suggest the medals are sent to someone else for engraving. If the RM are making the medals, then I can't reconcile the fact that they would send them to someone else for engraving. If they did then it's fairly mean of them not to tell you that, rather than saying simply "we've not engraved any medals in the Welsh language". The final bit where they indicate that they have no further information which touches upon your request is very odd.

I've often wondered what the "step by step" process is from the CC signing the certificate asking for the medal to be awarded, to the medal actually arriving at Police HQ for presentation. The answer to your question lies at the heart of the complete process.

What happens to the certificate signed by your CC? Who is it sent to? If you find out where it goes, ring them up or send them an email and try to get to the bottom of it that way. Or if you are not too far from Colwyn Bay, go and see the civvy who handles the who thing. 

Or on reflection, 'phone (or email) the FOI woman at the RM.    

Dave.

In view of what our Canadian friend says, I would suggest that if you have paid any great sum of cash for this item, that you return the stick to whoever you bought it from and ask for your money back. My initial thoughts about it were, it seems correct. If you are going to embark upon collecting truncheons, please do be careful about what you buy. There are some very dishonest people out there. Someone has clearly gone to a considerable length to deceive. Good luck!

Dave. 

I've spent an hour or so trying to identify the Coat of Arms and the motto without success.

I've consulted "The Book of Public Arms" by A.C. Fox-Davies published in 1915 and also "Civic Heraldry of England & Wales" by C.W. Scott-Giles published in 1933.

The Fox-Davies book consists of 876 pages and shows illustrations for only a small proportion of the entries. There is no index of mottos. So, without carefully examining the written description of over 600 plus coats of arms there is no reasonably quick way of me identifying the arms shown on the truncheon.

The Scott-Giles book is easier to refer to with an index of mottos for all the arms. Your motto is not listed nor are the arms illustrated.   

I've also looked at the websites dealing with Civic Heraldry (as I assume you also have), in an effort to identify and link the motto with a particular town, but without success. That exact motto is not shown at all on the sites I looked at.

I have a much earlier Victorian edition of the Fox-Davies book. I will look at that when I get time on the off chance that your arms may be shown as an illustration, as opposed to just a description. I'll get back to you if I have any success.

Dave. 

Interestingly, the Garter King of Arms has said publicly this morning that there is no requirement for "Organisations" to change their current Crown and Cypher. It is a matter for them to decide upon.

Dave.

4 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

There will without a doubt be a Coronation Medal, however, given King Charles’s suggestion that the Coronation will be a vastly scaled down version, to that of his late Mothers. I would hazard that the distribution of medals will mirror that, and the medal will only be issued to the great and good, those that are physically present and perhaps a smattering of a few per regiment, constabulary, etc.

 

We wait with baited breath……

 

Another burning question, is when will we see a change in effigy to existing medals. When will the first C111R police LSGC’s start to be issued? 

It's worth bearing in mind that there will be a load of PLS&GC medals etc. in the pipeline which will have been prepared ready to send to forces by the various Govt. Depts. who have delegated powers to award them, so I think that for some months bobbies who are in line to get their medal will get an EIIR version.

Dave.  

14 minutes ago, bigjarofwasps said:

I believe this maybe the medal being referred to. It’s certainly the only of it’s kind, I’m aware of. Don’t recall how it was engraved, although I do remember it was. The NCA have all sorts of weird and wonderful ranks, sure this medal did include a rank, but as you say it didn’t include NCA after the recipients name. 

Many thanks. I was not aware that they'd produced a specific medal for the NCA. Thought (wrongly) that they were issued with the normal police version.

Dave.

Photos now attached.

Dave.

Only a handful of forces produced the EVIIIR badges but I know of only one force that actually issued them and that was Gloucestershire Constabulary.

I have a photo of a Superintendent from that force wearing his EVIIIR cap badge. I'll locate it and attach an image.

Dave.

When you say that an "NCA" PLS&GC medal sold several years ago on eBay. Presumably it was described as such by the seller as opposed to having "NCA" marked on the medal. If the latter was the case then it was surely an error of some sort. I say that as force names are not marked (more is the pity) on such medals.

Dave. 

I can't read the full motto. What does it say? The second word appears to be "enterprise" but I'm struggling with the first.

Dave.