Dave Wilkinson

The announcement of a return to the use of the Imperial State crown alongside the release of images the King's new cypher gives me the opportunity of reminding those with an interest in collecting police insignia of the short lived reign of King Edward VIII. He succeeded the throne following the death of his father in 1936 and abdicated a few months later choosing marriage to an American divorcee over service to his country. The Metropolitan Police were quick to have helmet plates and cap badges made featuring the new King's cypher, only to be stopped in their tracks when he announced that he was stepping down as King. There is no evidence that the badges ever saw the light of day on the streets of London.

Appended are photographs of the badges in question.

I suspect that the Metropolitan Police will be unable to resist the desire to incorporate the new King's cypher into their badges. When they do it seems probable that the first to wear them will be officers stationed at the various palaces both in England and Scotland.

Dave.  

I predict that many will not bother changing the actual metal badges for many years, if not at all. Far too much expenditure involved. Forms, letterheads and the like will probably be changed immediately in those forces that use the cypher. Again, others may not bother.

Dave.

The 1953 coronation medal and the 1977 jubilee medal were divvied out on a restricted basis to the organisations who were entitled to receive it. 

Whether you attended the 1953 coronation or were on duty in connection with it, did not guarantee that you got a medal. Many did not.

Dave.

It's been suggested that the current QC will not be altered. We'll have to wait and see.

Dave.

I'd say yes, there will be a Coronation medal. As to who will get it, I think that's still to be decided.

Dave.

I see that no one has responded to you so I will. That said, truncheons are not my speciality. The first thing you need to do, in my opinion is to try to identify the coat of arms. It is not one I recognise. There are "on line" sites which you can refer to under the title "Civic Heraldry". Or alternatively you can possibly consult a reference book at your local public library.

Bear in mind that over many years these things have been faked. I'm not suggesting that your example falls into that slot but bear the possibility in mind.

Some observations. Aside from the coat of arms there does not seem to be anything exceptional about it in terms of the basic design. That pattern of truncheon was carried by bobbies in the UK right up to the 1990's. The strap looks a recent addition. The canvas cover looks as if it's been fashioned out of a truncheon pocket taken from a pair of police trousers with VR stamped onto it. Why would VR need to be applied to it? Considering its purported age, the paintwork/ finish looks very shiny.

Posting a clear close up photo of the coat of arms on here may help. Someone may recognise it.

As to is suggested age. Its displaying a "VR" which is indicative of a period prior to 1902 (Queen Victoria).

I hope this is helpful.

Dave.   

I think that perhaps the Royal Mint may be correct in what they are saying. It's quite feasible that it's been some years since the Mint held the contract for supplying Pol. Long Service Medals. Well before the introduction of the Welsh engraving? The RM now operate as a commercial concern and they compete as such for the award of contracts with other medal manufacturers. For example, they did not supply the last jubilee medals. I think a firm in Worcestershire did.  I suspect that the company that holds the contract will also do the engraving. You may well have more success with an approach to the Welsh forces direct, as you suggest.

If you approach the Government and start asking who they award contracts to, I suspect that they will refuse any FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality.   Best of luck!

Dave.

David Armstrong - Jones, the 2nd Earl of Snowdon, AKA David Linley, Princess Margaret's son.

Dave.

The City of London Police do not use any crown on their helmet plate and never have. Hampshire Constabulary use the arms of Hampshire as their badge. That does feature a representation of a crown. However, this has never been altered, due to the fact that the design is a grant of arms registered by Hampshire County Council at the College of Arms.

The Guernsey Police have worn the same KC helmet plate since circa. 1902. They didn't change it in 1952, so I can't see that they will change it now.

The Belfast Harbour Police have worn the KC on their badges since 1939 and still wear it.

Finally, Sergeants and Constables in the Herts. Constabulary are still wearing a QVC on their cap badges and have never changed despite the Sovereign's crown changing not once but twice in the intervening years.

It seems that there is no hard and fast rule.

Dave.   

Of course, you can own one if you've not been awarded it.

Thousands of individuals who have officially been awarded the medal have sold their entitlement via numerous websites. If you buy such a medal, it's yours to do with it what you wish. Look on eBay UK and similar auction sites. If you can afford to buy a genuine example do so. Stay away from the copies, unless you actually want a copy!

Dave.

7 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

I’m in no doubt, they’ll definitely be a change in police badges and a new effigy on the LSGC, but when that will be and how long that will take is anyones guess…….

There may only be a change for those forces that currently use "EIIR" as part of their insignia. These days you can count those forces on two hands (if that). If he decides to retain the present Crown, then those forces who use a coat of arms in the centre of their badges will have no need to change.

Dave.  

Made as a prop. for a fictional TV production (Children of the Damned") about circa. 20 years ago.

Dave. 

I would not hold your breath. I suspect that they will tell you that the amount of research involved would be such that to provide such information would be inordinate and that if it were to be provided there would be a cost involved which you would need to be prepared to pay.

Dave.

Thank you for the clarification.

Dave.

I may be missing something here, but what is it exactly that the fire service are awarding? Insofar as Government approved (By Royal Warrant) medals are concerned the fire service themselves award nothing. Unless its a "home grown" award for additional service. Or has the fire service long service & good conduct medal Royal Warrant been amended?

Dave.

I don't know what the conversion rates are but I suspect that its not worth more than £20-25. Ebay is awash with them and few if any seem to sell.

Dave.

From the 1980's through to to-day I'd guess. When it was issued the mesh liner would have been backed with a dark grey foam cushioning. However, with the passage of time this crumbles away leaving just the mesh backing. Its not a "rare" item but quite common. Thousands of them are issued each year and they are seldom recovered and are often given away as keep sakes to tourists etc. I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

Yes, they were about an inch tall. Those on epaulettes (present day) were/are smaller.

Dave.

40 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Can anyone help with a Cyprus GSM named Inspr A Gibb.

I have checked him against the Police roll in Cowleys book on the United Kingdom Police Unit to Cyprus 1955-1960 sent to assist in the Emergency. Theres no sign of him there.

I don't think he will be in the Prison Service as the rank is not right for that department

Could he be Local Police?

Could he be Colonial Police ?

Does anyone know where else to look.

thanks

Max

You could possibly try the current Sovereign Base Areas Police in Cyprus. They were established in 1962 and he may well have served with them. They may have some records that will assist.  There were other British Police Forces which existed in Cyprus viz:-

War Dept. Police (Cyprus) 1960-64.

Army Dept. Police (Cyprus) 1964-1968

and Army Depot Police (Cyprus) 1968-1995

I suspect that the historical records for those three forces may be held at Kew under a MoD Reference.

I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

Yes, I agree.

Dave.

Simon is quite right. The more information there is in the public domain which identifies what is and isn't a fake simply allows those who are disposed to producing such things, the benefit of such knowledge. They are then able to "hone" their craft to such an extent that it becomes more and more difficult to detect what is an is not the real thing. Its down to each collector acquiring knowledge and sharing it. But not, I would suggest, in the public arena.

Dave.   

37 minutes ago, filfoster said:

So....the center seam is likely a more modern version. I have both types (not originally City of London helmets). The center seam covering is on the plastic shell; the no-seam covering is on the cork helmet. Both have only the single chin strap.

The attached photos show a cork Senior Officer ceremonial helmet which dates from the 1950's. As you can see the seam is evident above the helmet plate but does not extend down to the peak. So, the inclusion of a seam may not necessarily be indicative of a modern helmet. As you can see its a complicated subject where there are apparently no hard and fast rules.

Dave.  

The City Police have had contracts with a variety of manufacturers over the years and in some cases the finished product differed slightly. The lack of vent holes in each side of the helmet was, at one time, a hallmark of a City Police helmet. However, in recent years vent holes have been added so that the helmet could conform to British standard specifications. Christy's manufactured helmets with and without centre seams, what they supplied depended upon the specification. As I understand it, the City Police issue two types of helmet. The first is a cork helmet which is not re-enforced and has the one leather chin strap and the second is a rigid plastic shelled re-enforced version which has the "riot" straps fitted. Each officer gets one of each pattern.

Dave.   

The "999" City of London helmet plates which are usually seen with an "E" Div. letter, were not made for the collector market. They are genuine City Police helmet plates which were presented by the City Police to certain individuals as souvenirs. It would be inappropriate to insert a currently used collar number and divisional letter, so 999 "E" was used.

Dave.   

9 hours ago, filfoster said:

...Were letters also used on collar/helmet numbers circa 1900?

No divisional letters, only numbers.

Dave.