filfoster

Ian: Thank you! Both the Iron Crown and the Franz Joseph look like non-combatant awards...no laurel leaves on the Iron Crown and the FJ is not on the war ribbon. I don't think it would make a difference if they were otherwise, as far as precedence, yes?

I hope we can find some pictures of these. I assume the EKO-R3 would precede the FJO-R?

Austrian. I have read in one source that the Franz Joseph Order was most often awarded for non-combat service, but many officers received decorations for both combat and non-fighting service, so I'm not sure that explains it. I have searched this forum and online including photos of generals and field marshals of the WW1 era and can't find one example of both worn on a medal bar together.

From my online survey, it appears that the Order of the Iron Crown and the Franz Joseph Order medals almost never appear on medal bars together. Why?

Bump...anyone find better photos or descriptions?

Deruelle: That is a good photo. Wish it was larger. To me, it's clear he's wearing a device besides rank pips but can't make out if it's the 'Alexander III' cipher or the winged propeller air service device. He has the Pour le Merite and is evidently wearing a bandage on his scalp, held on by cords under his jaw, behind his ear, so it's after the date of his severe wounding in July, 1917. Since April of that year, he was a Captain (Rittmeister) so would be wearing two rank stars/pips.

Deruelle: Yes, for the peacetime blue uniform. Can you find a Sanke portrait of his uniform, with similar detail, with his field gray uniform? I have not been able to, with my searches and books that I have.

Deruelle: Thank you!

Given his fame and popularity even today among WW1 historians, airplane modelers, etc. it's surprising that accurate depictions of his uniform details are so hard to find. Can't even find his date of promotion from Lieutenant to First Lieutenant (Oberlieutnant). Sometime between 1912 and April 1917 when he made Captain (Rittmeister).

Yes I just found these today on another forum. Your photos are larger and very clear. It's a shame these are black and white pictures, although the field uniform pair appear to be the subdued cords on white underlay and a secondary underlay (red?) which does not show readily on most photos of him. These would have been before his promotions, which raises some issues of the subdued cords on his early uniform, as these may not have been available then? One reference (Osprey WW1 German Air Service) has a color plate that purports to show Von Richthofen attending a friend's wedding wearing a nicer version of his Uhlanka which is described as having the regimental ciphers, the airservice propeller cipher AND his two rank pips. A lot of devices all crowded on that small 'real estate'. Not helpful, really, in trying to discern what he wore on his field uniform. I remain hopeful that the answer is out there....

Does anyone really know what style shoulder boards Von Richthofen wore on his uhlanka? Colorized photos are unreliable and there are no examples of his uniforms that I have found online that are surviving. There's 'what he should have worn' : subdued pattern silver/gray on white underlay and subdued 'Alexander III' monogram and crown plus rank pips, and the possible pre-war bright silver on white, with gilt ciphers and rank pips. And...He could have worn the gilt insignia on the subdued boards. And...he could have swapped out the 'Alexander III' cipher and crown for the winged propeller device, although the photos aren't clear enough to support that. Can't tell from any sources I've found what he, in fact, wore. Any information on this?

Thanks to all who contributed. Another successful investigation!

Alex K: Thank you! I think this has it! Still a puzzle why he wore these last two, in favor of others he might have done. The last one seems to be a Saxon decoration, Order of Albert the Glorious? Or the the 1903 Saxe-Altenburg Duke Ernest 1 Jubilee medal? The next to last, perhaps the 1902 Baden Jubilee medal?

Deruelle: Thank you. I have seen a listing of his gongs in one of the German Army 'rangliste', which is comprehensive but won't narrow it down to what he chose to wear among his many medals. I date this photo to sometime in 1915, before he received the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, or the oak leaves to his Pour le Merite, but after he received his promotion to Field Marshal. By their placement after the Centenary medal, it's likely they were either 'commemorative' or anniversary medals of some sort or non-Prussian German states medals.

Really? No guesses? The next to last, with a solid dark ribbon (yeah, I know yellow photographs dark back then) could be a Saxe Coburg Gotha silver medal of merit decoration - not really significant enough? and the last one could be the Queen Victoria golden jubilee...but neither are likely.

OK, here's another puzzler that shouldn't be hard. Hindenburg was known for generally wearing only Prussian awards on his medal bar. Yes, there are photos of him wearing Austrian medals when he was in Austrian uniform, etc. but generally he only war Prussian or Imperial medals and orders. (Uh, except, you know, that Oldenburg Friedrich August cross under his EK1). What are the last two medal on this medal bar, just after the Centenary medal?

Perfect! Thank you all!

I'll check the precedence for that one. It precedes the campaign medals...

It's been a while since I bothered anyone with British Great War leader ribbon questions (Jellicoe, last year). What is the ribbon between the Royal Victorian Order and the Sudan medal ribbon on the top row? My Spinks doesn't seem to show it. It also appears on the second portrait

Thank you! That does it, then.

OK, here's another esoteric bit of useless trivia to investigate. What is the second ribbon, the one next to the Austrian Service Cross ribbon, with the round, white metal star device?

Bayern: Yes, that is a possibility.

Silver or white gold it is. Although it appears only briefly, this photo clip of Goering meeting Hitler at an airfield in 1940, probably in the fall as the Battle of Britain was beginning, shows the interimstab with white shaft and silver (some white metal, platinum, white gold, etc.) head and tip. It's post July 19, 1940 the date of his promotion and he's wearing a Luftwaffe blue uniform, not his dove gray rig but with the First Pattern (eagle on left collar, batons on the other), Reichsmarschall collar tabs and the shoulder boards. HItler is wearing his 'field uniform'. Good enough for me.

No museum response, so let's give that up. Based on the Verlag book, (the sutures from the removal of one of my 'parts' for the cost of same have healed rather nicely), the Foch uniform photos suggest that the silver stars were worn on the 'field uniform' and the gold stars were worn on the 'parade'/dress uniform of the same cut. Anyhoo, if that's not right, I look forward to someone posting better information.

...and continues...IF there are no further photos, my conclusion is that the headpiece and ferrule cap are either white gold or platinum, silver colored metals, not yellow gold, based on the few color photos above. If you disagree, post a better photo.