filfoster

Bayern: Thank you. I do have the Mollo book and the illustration, as a drawing, even if based on a photo, is inconclusive of the color of the Reichsmarschall Interimsstab baton head. The formal baton, or reichsmarschallstab, for instance, was very different in composition of materials (ivory shaft, vice velvet covered for 'ordinary' marshals or grand admirals, platinum vice silver, etc and the diamonds) compared to the lower rank generalfeldmarschallstab batons, that his Interimsstab for that rank, Riechsmarschall, might have also had significant differences. I am hoping this post will elicit a response with a photo or reference work that gives details of the reichsmarschall Interimsstab on the metals of the headpiece and its badging. The badging itself may be different: was one of the eagles a Reichsmarschall eagle, clutching crossed batons? Surely there must be a color photo, rather than a drawing or painting or contemporary article that describes this. Marcon: Thanks, but no, that's only a 'regular' Heer generalfeldmarschall interimsstab. The higher rank Reichsmarschall interimsstab was different (see my prior post, please).

....Even the wonderful reference "Mythos Marschallstab" has only two, incomplete black and white photos of it.

Not a reference or color photo anywhere of Goring's Reichsmarschall interimstab. What happened to it? What does it look like, besides the ivory shaft? Is the head gold or platinum or silver or aluminum? What devices are on it? What metal are they? Lots of photos and palaver about the Reichsmarschallstab but nada on the interimstab. Not even a good color photo on Google. Anyone?

Only the Austrian and the Bavarian 1866 medals are real. The others are all available on ebay or from German vendors online. The frame is sheet brass, with bent wire 'pin' and soldered hinge and clasp. That is then covered with wool and the gongs are sewn on at the proper spacing. The ribbon is then sewn on and then a backing of wool is sewn to the reverse. It works, most of the time.

For the good of anyone else trying to duplicate Scheer's decorations at this time, it is possible to cobble up the currently available BVMO officer's cross:

OK. Here's what I think the ribbons are on the photo below. It can be clearly seen that the Bath ribbon is wide, compared to the other ribbons, which I think confirms the misplacement, transposed with the Victorian Order shown in the top left spot. Odd that the old film shows the dark blues as lighter color but the VO, Egypt and Khedive Star ribbons confirm it. Please ignore the bottom photo; it shows my prior work which incorporated a too-wide Khedive star ribbon. The correct ribbons are in the upper photo. Moderator, can you delete the bottom ribbon photo? The edit function doesn't seem to work for that.

OK, here's my reproduction. It's a hot mess - too many gongs on a bar that's as wide as the real one, by my calculations, but I lack the artifice of Leopold's tailor. Anyway, the 1870 ribbon/bars obscure the ribbons for the Iron Cross 2nd, Bavarian 1866 cross and the Mecklenburg-Schwerin 1870 cross. There's probably another Turkish medal I missed as well but this is as close as I can get.

Evidently not, per the precedence posted on the wehmacht-awards forum.

Should 6 and 9 be switched, the Bavarian campaign medal preceding the Prussian one?

My default opinion on Jellicoe's ribbons at this moment is that in the photos taken of him after his promotion to full admiral in August, 1914, his uniform has: top row: Victorian Order + Order of the Bath (mis-placed) + Egypt campaign 2nd row: 3rd China War + Prussian Red Eagle + Khedive Star These ribbons represent several very odd and interesting circumstances. 1. The transposition of the VO and OB ribbons 2. The inclusion of the Prussian Red Eagle ribbon, albeit a relatively high -2nd Class with swords- valor award, of a belligerent nation 3. The absence of the Sea Gallantry medal ribbon, which is a rather rare and prestigious medal. This jacket, in the collection of the UK National Maritime Museum still excludes this ribbon. 4. The inclusion of a Khedive Star ribbon, which is not insignificant but not rare, nor likely to get him free drinks at the bar. It's unlikely anyone at this date knows why these ribbons were worn in this order. I'm not giving up hope but even if the UK National Maritime Museum responds (unlikely), it's a stretch to imagine their expertise can explain this.

JapanX: Yes, this is the same jacket. The Red Eagle ribbon is still there, 2nd row, far right. The top row has the Bath ribbon now preceding the Victorian Order. We just need someone to confirm that these two ribbons were reversed (an error by Jellicoe, his tailor or his valet) in the first photo above. I have sent an email enquiry to the UK National Maritime Museum to see if they know anything about the ribbons in their earlier configuration but so far, no response. If any forum members know anyone there, perhaps you might put in a word?

This jacket still exists in the UK National Maritime Museum collections. I have sent them an inquiry. The jacket today includes ribbons affixed after Jutland, but the color photos clearly show a Prussian Red Eagle ribbon, so that mystery is solved. Why he didn't remove it is still a conundrum. I will share any response I may receive from the museum.

PF: Do you have the Rangliste preceding 31:05:1915 that would show what he was entitled to wear by the date of the Jutland/Skaggerak battle?

Another clue: The top center ribbon is noticeably wider than the other ribbons, which suggests it's a mis-placed Order of the Bath ribbon. Can anyone explain why it would not be in the proper order? Surely his tailor or batman would have known better.

The Sea Gallantry medal might be placed after the Victorian Order but the photos don't show any stripes at all on the top row, number two place ribbon.

Is there any circumstance for wearing the Victorian Order in precedence to the Order of the Bath? For example, relative to higher grade of the respective orders? Won't work here: he was Knight Grand Cross of the Bath in 1915 but Knight Commander of the Victorian Order, 1907. He should have worn the Bath ribbon before the Victorian Order ribbon. There isn't anything that he had, that would properly come between the KCVO and the Egypt campaign medal. So what is that middle ribbon if not an improperly placed Order of the Bath? A ribbon for the Order of St. John would be possible, but I can find no record that he ever received that. And, of course, it sits above the Prussian Red Eagle Order ribbon he ought to have removed! Am I the only one who's fascinated by the weirdness of all this on the uniform of one of the larger actors onstage in the Great War?

OK, I see at the time of Jutland, he had not yet been given the Order of Merit so here is a possible explanation: top row: Victorian Order / Order of the Bath-should be reversed?/Egypt -see the stripes? bottom row: China / Red Eagle / Khedive Star (Looks very light in photo but what else could it be?) What say the experts?

I keep thumping this tub in hope that someone knowledgeable about Jellicoe can explain these ribbons. The top row may be #1: Victorian Order #2: Order of Merit, which would be in the wrong sequence: the Victorian Order came after the Order of Merit in precedence; The bottom row is a complete mystery as it doesn't appear to include at the left or right hand either of his campaign ribbons, for Egypt (two white stripes on blue) or China (red with gold edge stripes), and of course, the weird Prussian Red Eagle ribbon in the center. Any help here, please?

Well, OK, I did carve that available copy up as best I could

Wish someone would make a good copy of that Military Merit Order officer's cross without the swords and flames. Not much chance of that and it's too difficult to carve the copy up to that configuration unless you have a machine shop.

OK: Here's my stab at a replica:

It's possible that Jellicoe is wearing the Red Eagle ribbon. Consider that Robert Massie, in his book, "Castles of Steel" mentions Admiral Cradock using ink to deface a Prussian ribbon rather than removing it, owing to the perceived difficulty. (Did he not have a batman of some sort?). After all, Jellicoe had a great deal to think about besides a particular ribbon on his 'monkey jacket'.

Dr. Snodgrass Ryan's example is interesting but may not explain Admiral Jellicoe's ribbons in the picture. I don't have any references to show when he was awarded many of his campaign medals and decorations and honors, except the wobbly Wikipedia. Like many senior officers, especially Royal Navy officers, he had some contact with officers of the Kaiserliche Marine, including, once, the Kaiser himself. Many such officers were awarded various degrees of the Red Eagle but it's not likely they continued to wear them after hostilities began. I can't explain the center, lower range ribbon. Can anyone identify it? According to the Wikipedia, my proposed ribbon bar above is what he should have been wearing.

Exactly! And yet, look at the evidence here: There isn't any other ribbon like that, in his awards, that looks like this Red Eagle ribbon, white with red stripes (can only guess at the colors but the pattern is distinctive) and he's a full admiral, which means it's a wartime photo. Can anyone explain this?

Besides being bad form, although a bit cheeky, are there regulations requiring the removal of awards from enemy countries?