filfoster

Thanks to all who contributed. Another successful investigation!

Alex K: Thank you!  I think this has it!  Still a puzzle why he wore these last two, in favor of others he might have done.

The last one seems to be a Saxon decoration, Order of Albert the Glorious?  Or the the 1903 Saxe-Altenburg Duke Ernest 1 Jubilee medal? The next to last, perhaps the 1902 Baden Jubilee medal?

Deruelle: Thank you.  I have seen a listing of his gongs in one of the German Army 'rangliste', which is comprehensive but won't narrow it down to what he chose to wear among his many medals. I date this photo to sometime in 1915, before he received the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, or the oak leaves to his Pour le Merite,  but after he received his promotion to Field Marshal.

By their placement after the Centenary medal, it's likely they were either 'commemorative' or anniversary medals of some sort or non-Prussian German states medals.

Really? No guesses? The next to last, with a solid dark ribbon (yeah, I know yellow photographs dark back then) could be a Saxe Coburg Gotha silver medal of merit decoration - not really significant enough? and the last one could be the Queen Victoria golden jubilee...but neither are likely.

OK, here's another puzzler that shouldn't be hard. Hindenburg was known for generally wearing only Prussian awards on his medal bar. Yes, there are photos of him wearing Austrian medals when he was in Austrian uniform, etc. but generally he only war Prussian or Imperial medals and orders.  (Uh, except, you know, that Oldenburg Friedrich August cross under his EK1).  What are the last two medal on this medal bar, just after the Centenary medal?

Perfect!  Thank you all! 

I'll check the precedence for that one. It precedes the campaign medals...

It's been a while since I bothered anyone with British Great War leader ribbon questions (Jellicoe, last year).  What is the ribbon between the Royal Victorian Order and the Sudan medal ribbon on the top row? My Spinks doesn't seem to show it.

It also appears on the second portrait

Thank you! That does it, then.

OK, here's another esoteric bit of useless trivia to investigate. What is the second ribbon, the one next to the Austrian Service Cross ribbon, with the round, white metal star device?

Bayern: Yes, that is a possibility.

Silver or white gold it is. Although it appears only briefly, this photo clip of Goering meeting Hitler at an airfield in 1940, probably in the fall as the Battle of Britain was beginning, shows the interimstab with white shaft and silver (some white metal, platinum, white gold, etc.) head and tip. It's post July 19, 1940 the date of his promotion and he's wearing a Luftwaffe blue uniform, not his dove gray rig but with the First Pattern (eagle on left collar, batons on the other), Reichsmarschall collar tabs and the shoulder boards. HItler is wearing his 'field uniform'. Good enough for me.

No museum response, so let's give that up. Based on the Verlag book, (the sutures from the removal of one of my 'parts' for the cost of same have healed rather nicely), the Foch uniform photos suggest that the silver stars were worn on the 'field uniform' and the gold stars were worn on the 'parade'/dress uniform of the same cut. Anyhoo, if that's not right, I look forward to someone posting better information.

...and continues...IF there are no further photos, my conclusion is that the headpiece and ferrule cap are either white gold or platinum, silver colored metals, not yellow gold, based on the few color photos above. If you disagree, post a better photo.

OK, sadly but not surprisingly, no response from the French museum of generals. However, I was interested enough in this topic to buy the wonderful but hideously expensive (at my age, I have less need for the body parts surrendered for the purchase), Verlag books on the WW1 French Army.  Inconclusive. The photos of generals items show mostly silver stars but also a few gold stars; There is no particular explanation for this. Foch's uniforms, in particular two of his Marshal rigs, show both (I think; again, the size of the stars on one photo is not clear enough to distinguish between worn gilt or tarnished silver). 

I hope this thread will eventually produce a definitive answer about this but for now, it seems that it was, as in most armies, then and now, "generals please themselves". Silver seems the most common metal for the stars.

16 hours ago, Bayern said:

filfoster : all is right ! Please tell us if from the musee des etoiles someone gives you some data 

Will do. No response yet.

ccj:  Does it seem to you that the majority of general's uniforms, campaign dress, used the silver stars?

13 hours ago, Bayern said:

filfoster, Putting apart your commentary about Germans I want to say you that if any thinks that the Germans were an are obsessive with minor details the French were and are more Byzantines. a heritage of the times of both Napoleons and the passion for the Menus Travaux ,that were inserted in the Bureaucracy of wich the Army was no small component . A colour detail . In 1914 Philip Petain was a aged Colonel freezed for his unorthodox points of view. At the outbreak of WW1 was recalled and sent assume a High Command. he marched to the front and was ascended to General . petty problem , no stars were available .an old woman of the House were Petain was lodged solved the problem. She took the stars of the uniform of her father a retired and dead General and carefully sewn it on the sleeves of Petains vareuse

Bayern: Great story! Thank you. No offense intended for the Germans, who, after all, had fine uniforms in all periods past.

2 hours ago, ccj said:

The question of gold or silver stars and when the regs changed has plagued me for decades. Some french collectors have told me it was the generals choice while others have told me the color changed to gold post ww1.

ive seem tunics and helmets with gold stars that I felt likely were ww1 period.

Would you think that the majority of WW1 generals favored the silver sleeve stars?

Thanks!  I think I'll keep the silver stars on the replica rigs I have. I have the gilt stars too but it's a lot of work to switch them out. The loops at the end of each star point are impressed through the fabric, then sewn to a pentagonal wool backing piece, all after the sleeve lining is undone. An alternative method is even more time-consuming, working thread loops around the star tip loops on the surface of the sleeve cloth. Mon dieu!

Ironic, that the French appear to have spent even more time than the famously anally retentive Germans did on this small matter of uniform insignia!!

And  there's this guy....

Glenn: Thanks for that. The regs are what they are, but how can the museum exhibits, and the portraits painted from life all be wrong?  A tour through the 64 online 'pages' of the museum shows mostly -not all- silver stars on the sleeves and kepis and overseas hats.

I hope the Musee desetoile will respond but they haven't yet and my experience with museum responses is '0'.

My own tentative conclusion is that silver stars were often worn, in contravention of the regs, whether by personal choice or expedience (it's what the tailors had).

All this is frankly what makes this question so interesting.

Enquiry sent. Now we wait...

Yes. Unknown when it was made? In the online pictures from the museum site, there were horizon blue uniforms and also helmets with some gold stars, and also with silver stars (see my posts above, eg, citing a picture at page 60).

There are also photographs of generals during the war that reference gold and silver sleeve stars. No help. 

I couldn't find a reference on the site to the specific date of the regulations which specified the silver stars, which were also used on the pre-war black generals' dolman or variuse.

Maybe I should, against hope, email the museum for clarification.

another exhibit picture of a 3 star Kepi, at page 40, has this which, absent further posts here from experts, settles it for me:

"Note the 3 silver stars which correspond to the period 1915-1930."

Thank you, Bayern.

...maybe the mystery is solved. Something changed in 1915, to or from the gilt stars. The museum of the stars link that Bayern provided, included this in the description of an horizon blue General of Division color photo, on page 59:

Note the 3 silver stars indicating the wearing of this tunic at the beginning of 1915. The central buttonholes are hidden and all the buttons are horizon blue. The tunic has two decorative reminders: Grand Officer of the Legion of Honor and 

Another exhibit mentions this about a cap:

C

his cap is of the 1915 model in horizon blue color with 2 silver stars and a third gold colored star. The General therefore wore this cap before 1915 since the color of the stars of the Generals of Arms was changed in 1915

...so we must hope some visitor or member of this site will favor us with some further information/photos.

It was disappointing in the extreme that the official French museum of the army, generals in particular, did not have clear examples of horizon blue, WW1-era uniform specimens displayed online, save this sample of inconclusive ones:

(NOTE: See below as I discovered the text that accompanied each photo when enlarged on the site. The dates for the silver stars of 1915-1930 were found).