filfoster

King Friedrich Wilhelm III and Graf Gneisenau. The king's litzen would suggest a regimental uniform but again, all my references for Napoleonic Prussian army officer uniforms call for double breasted kollet and no mention of a single breasted frock or surtout.

Well-known portraits of Field Marshal Blucher and other famous Prussian generals of the period show them wearing a single breasted, dark blue habit with red collar and Swedish cuffs. I cannot find a reference that identifies this uniform, as they all refer to the double breasted full dress or undress uniform coats. Yet, the evidence exists in these portraits that this uniform was worn. Does anyone have more information on this order of dress? Was it commonly worn in the field or for walking out (as it was evidently worn for portraiture)?

There is an oft-published photo of the Kaiser, flanked by Hindenburg and Ludendorf, where the Kaiser is wearing a Kleiner rock with collar tabs that are on a dark, presumably red, patch. And, as you point out, generals, and certainly the Kaiser, wore whatever they wanted.

Most if not all the studio photos of generals in uberrocks were pre-war.

It is my understanding that the uberrock was never produced in field gray. It was a pre-war undress frock coat that was superseded post 1910 by the pale gray Littewka or later, the very similar field gray kleinerrock. (I believe the uberrock co-existed for a time, pre-war. with the Littewka). Photographs and paintings that appear to show a 'field gray' cloth color are likely explained by lighting and artistic license. Paintings, even by the celebrated Hugo Vogel, are notoriously poor references. How many Hindenburg paintings show his Third Foot Guards collar litzen with red underlay, instead of the correct yellow, for example?

Also, general officers uberrocks were usually of a very dark shade akin to a navy blue, almost black color. I have not seen a Bavarian officer's uberrock but suppose these may have been a lighter shade but the OP concerned Prussian uniform.

By HUGH: Thanks for that. At a casual glance, I'd have guessed that it was a ceremonial dagger. I know the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine both used daggers / dirks, but what about the Wehrmacht?

Not my field and probably a good subject for another thread. As I understand it, subject to correction by the greater minds on this forum, in World War One, Naval officers did wear daggers; there was no Luftwaffe as a separate branch; it was a part of the Heer although there were Navy pilots, particularly commanders of the Zeppellins and the very large 'giant' aircraft like the Zep. Staaken.

WWI German Army officers, I believe, wore only the sword-no daggers- as an edged side arm, with appropriate State portepee. Of course, officers were permitted pistols as functional side arms.

Now by WW2, I suppose covered in another forum, virtually every uniformed German, including a streetcar motorman, had a particular uniform and dagger. We've all seen the fancy coal miners' get ups.

OK, for the non-initiates - I've seen the velvet baton, but what's an interimstab? Got a picture?

The interimstab was the informal 'everyday' version of the Field Marshal's baton, worn with service dress. It resembled a cane with a fancy, symbolic silvered and gilt headpiece, through which a metallic corded lanyard and tassel, worked in the State colors, passed near the bottom of the headpiece/handle, where it joined the shaft. Each German state that had a military component and a rank list that included a field marshal (Bavaria, Saxony, etc.-usually the sovereign and other kings or Grand Dukes) had their own similar but different versions of this and the parade batons. The Bavarian ones are quite beautiful.

Of course, the various German state kings and Grand Dukes bestowed these honors on each other, and to other monarchs of the German royal clans, such as Ferdinand of Bulgaria, like challenge coins are exchanged today.

Here's a link to Hindenburg holding this gadangus. (HIs interimstab! Get your mind on a higher plane, please).

http://www.akpool.co.uk/postcards/24018393-kuenstler-ak-grabendorff-r-von-hindenburg-in-uniform

Hindenburg and Mackensen were sometimes photographed without a baton but it's a job to find a WW2 German field marshal in front of a camera without one.

Here's another topic of little or no interest:
When would a Prussian field marshal of the era 1870-1918 carry the parade baton as opposed to the interimstab cane? Yes, the obvious 'parade', but were there other occasions when FM's would tote their fancy velvet baton? Inquiring minds want to know. Well, not many, maybe.

As a corollary subject, some photos of WWI FM's show them sans batons of any kind, which is a marked contrast to their WW2 counterparts, who seem to have bathed and slept with at least an interimstab. Just saying.

This is the 'old style' Prussian General Officers' full dress or 'parade' uniform. It was worn on parade and gala occasions, with full medal bar, sash and neck orders, etc. The 'full monty'.

If any members have even a single example of this button that they are willing to sell, please contact me.

Moderators: I hope this post does not violate any rule against solicitation or outright whiney begging within this forum. P

Rudi: Many, many thanks! Yes, this is the same parade baton that Ludwig appears to be holding in many photos, including a good one in the Jan Kube book of many years back.

Question: Do you recall if it was this pattern on all sides? I must assume so.

It is interesting that a photo of a military review in Germany interwar, of Princes Rupprecht and Leopold, show each holding Bavarian parade batons of different appearance. (Yes, I know they were both also Prussian field marshals but these batons are distinctly not the Prussian pattern). The batons they hold are not only different from the Ludwig III but also from each other! It may have been that Bavarian field marshals, particularly of the Royal House, were allowed a lattitude in the design of their own batons.

The top interimstab appears to be a Prussian one, which would be correct also as Ludwig III was made a Prussian field marshal.

The middle one is clearly the Bavarian interimstab.It is the only color photo I have ever seen, and has more detail than any photo I have yet seen.

I will treasure these photos as they are likely the only ones I will ever see, in color and close detail!

Nada? This demonstrates the difficulty of finding what is essentially a very 'ordinary' looking button.

I had the same trouble finding French and Italian general officer buttons-it took half a decade! (Still looking for British Field Marshal KC buttons and Admiral of the Fleet buttons).

This really is a small niche interest, isn't it?

Does anyone know of a source for late-era Austro-Hungarian general officer buttons, the ones worn on the 'German' everyday pike grey tunic or the white gala tunic? These are not overtly 'military' at all but I have not been able to find a single one that is unattched to a uniform.

I am attempting to replicate the German dienstrock and need at least one to make others.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Does anyone have photos (or a hyperlink to one) of a Bavarian field marshal's parade baton or interimstab? The only photos I have or have found show only one side and there seems to be considerable variation among contemporaneous specimens, for example, an interwar photo of Rupprecht and Leopold attending some military review shows what appear to be two very distinctly different Bavarian (both were also Prussian field marshals, I believe) batons.

The photos I have seen (two) of the interimstab show a very simple silvered, cylindrical 'head' surmounted by an open Bavarian crown and the usual braid and tassled loop through the headpiece near where it attaches to the shaft. Any details are difficult to see but presumably are the Bavarian crest.

Surely photos must reside in some auction catalogue or museum collection that I have not found.

Any help?

Give the medal guys a chance.....

Thanks for that. I will also post there. Well, wait a minute. I am a ninny. I see that THIS IS the medals and orders forum and your comment was an admonshment to be patient. I started a duplicate thread which I doubt will double my chances of success. I hope someone, somewhere, has something as I have been at this for a long while.

Surely one of these has come to auction or is on display in a museum somewhere.

My first thread, and sorry if my search missed something already covered.

Here is a subject of little interest to most but to me all the same.

I wondered if anyone had any photos of either the parade baton or interimstab of a Bavarian field marshal? I cannot find anything online, or in my photo books that is helpful. The usual photos of Ludwig III or Leopold or Rupprecht only show one side of the batons, and no detail of the caps. They seem to show a distinct individuality as Leopold's appears much different than the King's or Rupprecht's (parade batons).

I have not found any in the few auction catalogues I am able to access.

Help, please?

This is a wonderful thread to read and a good service to collectors. I seek good copies of Imperial and Third Reich medals and decorations, particularly Orders, because I use them to embellish replica uniform ensembles. It would be prohibitive to buy, even if I could find them. originals just to fill loops. I make ribbon bars and medal bars, using what I can find. Fortunately, many good decorations have been copied and are sold as such. There is a legitimate market for good copies. It is a shame that crooks cannot leave well enough alone.

The examples shown above show how well some of these things can be made. My own work will never trouble serious collectors but will happily satisfy an empty uniform front.

Sorry to pile on to an essentially 'dead' thread, but no one seems to have shared my own view.

My recall of The Last Kaiser and The German High Command at War would answer the question of why Ludendorff didn't get the Black Eagle: It's because, as these books make clear, that the Kaiser didn't really like him very much. While the valor awards of the PLM and the IK Grand Cross were probably obligatory, in the mind of the All Highest at least, it seems likely he would snub this imperious servant, with Ludendorff's brusque and very un-courtly manners, by withholding the highest Knighthood order in his gift, simple as that. The Kaiser was certainly sensitive to class distinctions as Hindenburg's initial recall from retirement was as much to be Ludendorff's superior, as any other real function.

I am aware that the highest Red Eagle award (Grand Cross-a lovely order), was an 'automatic' with the award of the Black Eagle but it does not appear that the award of the Black Eagle was ever a given for attaining any particular rank or deed.

The breast star that Ludendorff is often photographed wearing looks like a Black Eagle but on close examination, appears to be a Red Eagle order with swords.