filfoster

29 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

I'm fully aware what it is Filfoster, that is why I said the link may be helpful in identifying medals on Ludwig III's bar - if you check the link (more) carefully, you will see that the medals on each of the stoelen bars are listed. Coupled with hte new photographs, I think the link gives you a handsome guide that should assist in further narrowing down the list.

 

Just a thought ...... ?

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Sandro: Thank you.

9 hours ago, Bayern said:

King Ludwig III of Bayern was a true soldier , he was wounded in a leg while serving in the Royal Bavarian Army during 1866 war against the Prussians and allied with Austria Hungary . the bullet was not removed and the future King carried until his death a certain slight limp . you can see this in the films portraying the King and you can observe that he normally wear long trousers and not Breeches and riding boots . He was Much Loved in Bavaria and I wish to remember that Bavaria was a Federate Kingdom into the Empire with his own Army and War Minister, his own Railways and his own Post and Prussian postal stamps were not current in Bavaria . Army Officers Lists run separate the same was valid for Numbering the Army Regiments . to end, Ludwig III dont fled 

 

Yes, he's an interesting historical person. That's why I want to replicate his medal and ribbon bars and perhaps his dress uniform.

I hope these medals and orders were recovered.  Were there ribbon bars in this collection that presumably were not included in the stolen items, likely because they did not have medals and so seemed of less value? Are they currently on display?

GdC26: The photos are very helpful but I still will need help with some of the later (righthand) gongs.

As to the URL link, I am very sorry this appears to be a notice of a theft. The medal bars appear to be Prince Leopold's. I can tell because I have copied the topmost one with help from the members of this forum.

See: 

#13 A medal from Hesse or Saxe Coburg, looks like Carl Eduard profile....

#14 Austrian Siignum Laudis? No crown so could be another Austrian medal of 1866?

7 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

Calm down. I've seen plenty of German-bashing in my time, glad this is not an example thereof. Carry on.

Gosh no, gentle fun. I am never seldom intentionally rude. 

Still plenty of blanks left to fill and correct my errant guesses.

#4, out of precedence order (but he's king right?) Bavarian 1866 war cross.  Kinda 'in you face' for the Prussians, no?

#12 Hanoverian 1866 Langensalza battle medal?

Thanks, PF and Dave Danner.  Can anyone help fill in the vacant slots in the initial post? I can guess at a few but my eyes and references aren't up to a certainty for most of the vacancies.

Yes, ccj, I think you're right. No, I didn't mean to imply that he did get either one pre-war, because to my eye, these two awards are NOT apparent on pre-war photo with the medal bar at all and so I'd say he doesn't wear them. They are 'conspicuously absent'- not there at all - when he might have gotten at least a Max Joseph at any time: he's the King after all, and could have given it to himself or some toady could have put him in for one.

He fought AGAINST Prussia in 1866 and so would certainly not have gotten a Prussian valor award then and I don't see that he fought in 1870-71, so no EK of any degree for him from that war either. He's obviously wearing an EK 1 in your photo which seems to be a WW1 era picture. I can't tell from the black and white photo if there's an EK2 ribbon on the bar.

I am primarily interested in the pre-war medal bar but if anyone can decipher the above war time photo, that would also be appreciated. Another project.

..."Wikipedia", that august reference source, says he held the Max Joseph Order Grand Cross but again, I don't see the knight's cross, the lowest degree, on his pre war medal bar, which would have been the usual convention, even if he'd only received the higher degree. His brother Leopold had it in its proper order. In fact, Leopold's medal bar begins in almost the same sequence but had the Max Joseph at the #2 space.

....and making moral judgements about long past historical events and people is au courant in our culture just now. Even though I'm pretty old (be 70 next year) I'd like to get in on it while I still can.

Please. I hope you're kidding. It's intended as a humorous phrasing. Who knows what I'd have done? Probably the same thing. These folks are long gone and I am only trying to get some help with a project. I obviously have an interest and respect for these events and people or I wouldn't be bothering with it at all. 

If anyone wishes to thrash me over any of my posts, please PM me and we can set a date and time off the board. I hope readers will appreciate my admittedly wan attempts at humor here.

I would sincerely appreciate any help anyone can give to identify some of these medals. 

By the way, I understand that after being badly wounded in action when he was young, Ludwig III decided he'd had enough of military glory and I cannot criticize him for that.

I have mixed feelings about this thread. I join the majority of posts condemning this man's fraud. I would also admit envy that he can produce such excellent copies of very expensive and hard to find medals and orders.

I myself make reproduction bars for my own uniform displays but they would not fool anyone and are never offered for sale. The medals I use are only those that are commonly available online. This fellow has some very rare stuff and I am envious that he has them at his disposal.

Ironically, this thread also confirms the wisdom of being satisfied with copies sold as copies, the better quality ones, anyway. There is too much risk of being taken by charlatans like this guy. If you buy a copy as a copy, you know what you're getting.

Before Ludwig III, last Wittelsbach King of Bavaria ran away skedaddled after WW1 (He never formally abdicated, did he?) he swanned around in some pretty cool threads. His medal bar was wunderbar! I count 16 medals, so it's not a huge project, not like Kaiser Wilhelm's 21 gongs or Wilhelm I's 20, mostly older medals not found as repros.  I can guess at some of them but would like to recreate it and can't make them all out. Can anyone help me?

Conspicuous absences: Military Max Joseph order; Iron Cross 2nd.

I know the breast stars:  St. Hubertus, St. George and Military Merit Order , Grand Crosses

Bound to be a 1905 Jubilee medal and a long service medal too somewhere on there.

1. Jubilee medal for the Order of St. George

2. Military Merit Order 3rd with swords (and crown?)

3. Ludwig Order

4. ?

5. Luitpold 1909 70 year Jubilee medal

6.

7. Bavarian 1866 campaign cross?

8. A Hanseatic city cross? which one? This is probably wrong as the photo seems pre-war.

9. Prussian Centenary Medal

10.

11.

12.

13.

14.

15. Austrian F J Tapferkeit

16.

..Not giving up. Surely British Army uniform collectors/enthusiasts want to know the answer to this as well.

Bump. Someone, perhaps one of the UK contributors to this forum, must have these regulations at hand. Please share them?

On 30/12/2021 at 12:57, Market garden said:

Many of his and other notable German officers. Decorations and awards were broken up for there gold,silver or gem value sometime after capture by the Allies.The monies for the value of these were given to the warrelief aid to pay for rebuilding and feeding Germany. I read this in a refrence book on German decorations. Perhaps this was also destroyed for it's monetary value?

I might depend on who found it. Any GI or military collector who found it and recognized what it was, and it would likely have been found amongst some of his other things to identify it as his, would certainly have preserved it for its historical value intact.  My best guess would still be it's in a private collection somewhere, known only by a few.

Ok, let's start again. Disregard the cheeky tarted-up supplication.  Does anyone have access to the uniform regulations for rank insignia for the WW1 period that might shed some light on this 'double crown' mystery?  I'm just a superannuated deplorable Yank in our 'flyover' backwoods. I can't find these regs online or in my references. I would appreciate your assistance.  

"Come on, sport....give us a go, yeah?  Give us a little WW1 rank insignia regulations, eh? You know...the big boys, the field marshals and what not."

Anyone have the WW1 era regs to quote?

I believe, based on insignia currently available, (although there are no longer to be Field Marshals newly created), the small crowns continue to be part of the insignia for this rank, as they were during the Great War and all times between.  I believe the initial regulations were vaguely enough worded (please God, someone contribute the actual WW1 regulation wording here!), to allow the General's rank crowns to be worn in addition to smaller crowns included in the Field Marshal rank devices. 

The photos above seem to clearly show Haig wearing both the small and larger Kings Crown devices at this rank. I believe the King also wears both type crowns although the photos of him are less easily made out. That is why I posit that these larger crowns are somehow reflective of ADC status. 

Until someone who knows can post, my tentative opinion is that the larger rank crown was left on after promotion because the regs were vague about whether the crown was the one that was part of (not actually attached, though) the FM device or the more familiar, larger rank crown used for full general, to be used.

A friend suggested that it's a CIGS distinction but that seems unlikely as the King also wears it and I cannot find that Haig ever served as CIGS. Robertson and Henry Wilson were CIGS during the war.

Here's a near-useless tinted photo, because of the angle, of King George V with the extra doo dads.:

HERE!  There ain't supposed to be two crowns here! Why are there? See the little metal crown? That's 'regulation'. The bigger one is the mystery. Unless it's an ADC peculiarity, it's wrong. Of course, I can't now tell the King and Haig it's wrong but it's a mystery. Does anyone know why this is done?

I would also recommend seeing again in enlargement, the IWM photo in the initial post above which DOES show, albeit at an angle, the small metal crown BETWEEN the larger king's crown in the center of the shoulder strap, and the top of the laurel wreath surround.

....For good measure, and contrast, I have included here the photo of WW2 FM Sir Harold Alexander which shows the simple FM insignia with the small crown only. Not to confuse things, but he also wears the monogram of George VI below it to signify honorary ADC.

NOTE: The small crown is a SEPERATE piece. Alexander wears it spaced generously above the wreath, which WW1 FM's seem not to have done. Tailor's/valet's choice?

11 hours ago, SillyOldGrandad said:

What small crown?. There is no small crown, just a large crown above the wreath and crossed batons.    Pete.

Pete:  A considerable part of the problem is finding online photos which clearly show this insignia. The subjects were photographed at angles which do not clearly show the smaller crown, which was regulation part of the FM insignia. I will post other pictures later today. Haig (and the King) at this time wear metal Field Marshal devices, the crossed batons within a wreath, surmounted by a small gilt King's Crown, and also the larger, 'Major' rank crown with the velvet insets. These photos do not clearly show them. These are the best I can do. I need someone who is familiar with these uniforms to explain the larger and smaller crowns. Only the smaller crown was needed, per the regulations that I know. In WW2, for example, there are no photos I've found that show the two crowns being worn by Alexander, Dill, Alan Brooke, etc. I speculate that the regs were not 'nailed down' in WW1 as it was the first time the rank was worn with Khaki Service Dress and the larger crown was likely a 'holdover' device from the next lower full general insignia.

11 hours ago, SillyOldGrandad said:

What small crown?. There is no small crown, just a large crown above the wreath and crossed batons.    Pete.

Pete: Perhaps these photos will help. Sir John French is shown wearing the 'regulation' insignia: The laurel wreath enclosing crossed batons with a very small King's Crown surmounting. Yes, I know it's difficult to see but magnify the photo if you can.

Haig is shown wearing this AND the larger King's Crown of Major rank size above it. There is NO REGULATION I can find that specifies this. Why is it worn? Does it reflect an ADC status? Haig was ADC to King George V. and the King was ADC to his father, Edward VII. If so, I cannot find any regs for this, so have asked this board/forum for help.