filfoster

..Not giving up. Surely British Army uniform collectors/enthusiasts want to know the answer to this as well.

Bump. Someone, perhaps one of the UK contributors to this forum, must have these regulations at hand. Please share them?

I might depend on who found it. Any GI or military collector who found it and recognized what it was, and it would likely have been found amongst some of his other things to identify it as his, would certainly have preserved it for its historical value intact. My best guess would still be it's in a private collection somewhere, known only by a few.

Ok, let's start again. Disregard the cheeky tarted-up supplication. Does anyone have access to the uniform regulations for rank insignia for the WW1 period that might shed some light on this 'double crown' mystery? I'm just a superannuated deplorable Yank in our 'flyover' backwoods. I can't find these regs online or in my references. I would appreciate your assistance.

"Come on, sport....give us a go, yeah? Give us a little WW1 rank insignia regulations, eh? You know...the big boys, the field marshals and what not."

Anyone have the WW1 era regs to quote?

I believe, based on insignia currently available, (although there are no longer to be Field Marshals newly created), the small crowns continue to be part of the insignia for this rank, as they were during the Great War and all times between. I believe the initial regulations were vaguely enough worded (please God, someone contribute the actual WW1 regulation wording here!), to allow the General's rank crowns to be worn in addition to smaller crowns included in the Field Marshal rank devices. The photos above seem to clearly show Haig wearing both the small and larger Kings Crown devices at this rank. I believe the King also wears both type crowns although the photos of him are less easily made out. That is why I posit that these larger crowns are somehow reflective of ADC status.

Until someone who knows can post, my tentative opinion is that the larger rank crown was left on after promotion because the regs were vague about whether the crown was the one that was part of (not actually attached, though) the FM device or the more familiar, larger rank crown used for full general, to be used.

A friend suggested that it's a CIGS distinction but that seems unlikely as the King also wears it and I cannot find that Haig ever served as CIGS. Robertson and Henry Wilson were CIGS during the war. Here's a near-useless tinted photo, because of the angle, of King George V with the extra doo dads.:

HERE! There ain't supposed to be two crowns here! Why are there? See the little metal crown? That's 'regulation'. The bigger one is the mystery. Unless it's an ADC peculiarity, it's wrong. Of course, I can't now tell the King and Haig it's wrong but it's a mystery. Does anyone know why this is done?

I would also recommend seeing again in enlargement, the IWM photo in the initial post above which DOES show, albeit at an angle, the small metal crown BETWEEN the larger king's crown in the center of the shoulder strap, and the top of the laurel wreath surround.

....For good measure, and contrast, I have included here the photo of WW2 FM Sir Harold Alexander which shows the simple FM insignia with the small crown only. Not to confuse things, but he also wears the monogram of George VI below it to signify honorary ADC. NOTE: The small crown is a SEPERATE piece. Alexander wears it spaced generously above the wreath, which WW1 FM's seem not to have done. Tailor's/valet's choice?

Pete: A considerable part of the problem is finding online photos which clearly show this insignia. The subjects were photographed at angles which do not clearly show the smaller crown, which was regulation part of the FM insignia. I will post other pictures later today. Haig (and the King) at this time wear metal Field Marshal devices, the crossed batons within a wreath, surmounted by a small gilt King's Crown, and also the larger, 'Major' rank crown with the velvet insets. These photos do not clearly show them. These are the best I can do. I need someone who is familiar with these uniforms to explain the larger and smaller crowns. Only the smaller crown was needed, per the regulations that I know. In WW2, for example, there are no photos I've found that show the two crowns being worn by Alexander, Dill, Alan Brooke, etc. I speculate that the regs were not 'nailed down' in WW1 as it was the first time the rank was worn with Khaki Service Dress and the larger crown was likely a 'holdover' device from the next lower full general insignia. Pete: Perhaps these photos will help. Sir John French is shown wearing the 'regulation' insignia: The laurel wreath enclosing crossed batons with a very small King's Crown surmounting. Yes, I know it's difficult to see but magnify the photo if you can. Haig is shown wearing this AND the larger King's Crown of Major rank size above it. There is NO REGULATION I can find that specifies this. Why is it worn? Does it reflect an ADC status? Haig was ADC to King George V. and the King was ADC to his father, Edward VII. If so, I cannot find any regs for this, so have asked this board/forum for help.

My understanding of the regs specify only a single small crown surmounting the crossed batons within the wreath. Not a small and larger crown, both. The field marshal batons and wreath badge does NOT include an integral crown at the top. It is a separate badge in the examples I actually have. Does anyone have any better information, please?

"...crossed batons within an oak and laurel wreath, surmounted by a crown.." Well, here's two crowns. That ain't right, is it? Of course, he's a field marshal and friend of the King so I suppose he could wear whatever, but...

Thank you! I should send you a PayPal for all the help you've given me. Best, Phil

Field Marshal the Earl Haig seems to have a surplus crown on his shoulder straps. He wears the crossed batons wreath, surmounted by a small crown, per regulations, but also was what looks like a holdover badge, the larger rank crown, from his previous generals rank on each strap. (Photos of King George V also seem to show the larger crown.). Why is he wearing these 'extra' larger crowns?

Anyone make out the battle bars on the 1870-71 campaign medal?

I think it will be hard to find a copy of either, with swords.

Does anyone know, or can you decipher, the bars for his 1870-71 campaign medal?

Thank you Daniel (again!). I have never seen a copy of it. If I copy this medal bar, that will be the most difficult one to get.

If someone has a pre-war rangeliste that would do it.

What medals are on his medal bar? I can make out: 1. 1870 EK2nd, with oak leaves 2. Officer 25 yr long service cross 3. 1870-71 campaign medal with bars: Which ones? 4. 1866 cross 5. SW Africa medal: assume non combatant 6 Centennial medal 7. Some kind of Lippe medal?

Voila! It's close, and a half a cigar. The helmet is cork but has one vent hole in each side. The plate is later, not the oval number surround. It's the best I can do in the time and budget I have. I hope someday to upgrade the helmet and plate if I can ever find a good helmet without vents and the proper plate. Until then, it's the best I can manage.

Dave: Once again, thank you very much. This was critical for my reproduction. I will soon post a photo of the completed kit.