filfoster

Perhaps the white of Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 39 of which he was "Chef".

Regards

Glenn

Glenn: Thanks for this. That would be my guess, given the very light color of the photographs. I had searched to see if he was an honorary 'chef' or 'ala suite' to any regiments and had not found this. Great info and until someone has more conclusive documentation or persuasive arguement, that is what I will go on. P

Anyone know if this bar still exists or has anyone tried to copy it?

As an example of copy medal bars, I am attaching a thumbnail of some that I have made:

The bottom one is the Kaiser's as in my avatar.

Andy: Thanks for your reply. I had thought of that but would need another precedent. For example, Alfred von Schlieffen wore Great General Staff uniform (See thumbnail) when he was the Chief of the Great General Staff.

Does anyone have a verification that Schlieffen's facing colors worn on that uniform were crimson/carmine red, rather than general's poinceau or 'poppy' red?

In the medals and decorations forum, I have asked what medals Ludendorff wore in many photos (see the thumbnail attached).

As First Quartermaster General, with the substantive rank of General of Infantry, what color underlay is he wearing to his shoulder boards in thie thumbnail? The most logical color would be red, for a general, but even accounting for the perversity of the photo process at that time, (Hindenburg's bright yellow underlay for collar tabs and shoulder boards always looks dark), the color looks too light to be red. Can any one solve this mystery? Virtually no online reference or image I have found shows the color clearly.

This is frustrating since he was among the best known figures of the Great War.

I searched this and am surprised it was not done to death before. If I missed it, please direct me to the thread.

Has anyone identified all the medals on Ludendorff's well-photographed medal bar?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Erich_Ludendorff_1918.jpg

Other than Danile Krause's post last year identifying all his awards in the shorthand notation that I can just barely get through, no one seems to have done this.

Here is Mr. Krause's submission

Ludendorff, Erich GdI 1.OQM Ch GS plmE, RAOGKEX, RAO1EX, RAO3SKr, KO2, HOH2aX, EKGK, VK, DA, HEK1X, AK, BZ1X, BrK2, BMJ1, BMVO, BH, HH, LüH, HT, LKEK, MG2b, MMV1, MStMV1, MStMV2T, OV1XmL, OK1, RK, SH1, SH2a, SA1gStX, GSF2aX, EH1X, CK, SMK, WVK1X, WM1, WM2, WK1X, WK2c, ÖL1K, ÖL2aK, ÖEK1K, ÖFJ2a, ÖM1K, ÖM2K, ÖGrSL, JM3, SS1, TH

His bar looks to be about 17 medals, just 4 behind the Kaiser's famous one. Any takers here?

'nada'?

no one has photos for this?

When were enameled officer Guard stars introduced for wear on Foot Guard officer and General officer pickelhauben? Were earlier versions without enameling?

I am particularly interested in the version of this worn during the 1870-71 war.

I have posted this on the uniforms forum but wanted to cover all the bases. Does anyone have a photo of any Party or Eastern Territories or General Government officials wearing the double breasted undress tunic with a medal bar? I seem to recall having seen this before but it was evidently not 'regulation' and I cannot find any photos that show this.

This may belong in the medals and decorations forum but we'll start here. Were medal bars worn with any of the double breasted tunics, usually worn as undress? I have scoured my limited resources for any pictures of Diplomatic Corps or NSDAP or Eastern Territories higher ups wearing medals with their DB jackets and have come up short. I seem to recall a photo of either Franz Xavier Schwartz or one of the Gauleiters wearing this combination but cannot find it now. It must have been uncommon but was it ever done, e.g. receptions, etc.?

"Maybe on this big photo you can see if he is wearing the First Class of Grand Cross breast star.

In any case, it seems that if an award of first class consisted of two parts (decoration on neck and chest), it used to take only one of the two parts. For example, Ludendorff usually wears the Star of Commander of the Order of Hohenzollern House in the chest, but I've never seen him with the Commander Cross around his neck. Surely he chose to wear the Star of the Grand Cross of the Red Eagle Order, but not the Grand Cross around his neck."

____________________________________________________________________________________

My response:

Someone with better references will have to clarify that there is a First Class of the Grand Cross. I thought most Prussian orders, the Grand Cross was a superior grade to a First Class and not itself divided into classes. In ohter words, there may be variations such as with swords or oakleaves but a Grand Cross is sui generis and not divided into further classes. Anyone have the statues on this?

In any event, the photo seems to show Ludendorff wearing the first class star with swords, not the higher grade that he was gazetted. This is not a common practice, is it?

This photo is dated on 1923, during the Beer Hall Putsch trial. It's not a pre-date of the Grand Cross award.

I thought so but it's odd that he denies himself wearing the higher grade of the Red Eagle and the neck badge which was very striking and a popular medal to wear, although perhaps not with the other 'heavy' (superior) neck orders he is wearing in the photo.

Grand Cross with Oakleaves and Swords gazetted 25.09.17 replacing the 1st Class with Swords gazetted 31.03.17

Grand Cross with Oakleaves and Swords gazetted 25.09.17 replacing the 1st Class with Swords gazetted 31.03.17

It is interesting that there are few if any photos of him wearing the corresponding neck decoration for this award. The 'motto' ring around the center medallion also does not look like the dark blue enamel of the Grand Cross, so this photo seems to pre-date the later award. Does anyone have a photo of him wearing either the breast star or neck decoration for the Grand Cross award?

The new Verlag publication "Der Deutschen Generale" (English version available) answers this: Parades, specific ceremonial occasions. This book has fantastic color photos of surviving examples of virtually every aspect of the uniforms of generals of the German states, for the period 1888-1910 or so, before the introduction of the field gray service uniform.

Hoyden R wrote:

"In 1812, the French issued the "Bardin Regulation" which describes the undress jacket as a single breasted undressed coat with one row of buttons, upright collar and turned back cuffs. This is what the Undress Coat that you have above is based on . The Prussians introduced in 1814.

You may also want to locate a copy of David Nash's The Prussian Army 1808-1815."

Thank you! This is what I wanted. Your post demonstrates a deep knowledge of this subject. It is unfortunate that the readily available sources (well, the Osprey books are certainly readily available but I did not think to look into this volume. Perhaps the 'staff' would have been a good clue to do so), do not have a simple explanation for a uniform that by its use in the period portraiture, was popularly worn by high ranking Prussian officers.

I will try to scare up a copy of Mr. Nash's book.

Hoyden R, these are good references but for the RUSSIAN army of that time. Blucher was a cavalry general of the PRUSSIAN army and the uniform guides/references that I have found all describe double breasted kollets. Yet, as shown above, the senior generals and the king himself, were painted wearing the single breasted dark blue tailcoat with red collar and Swedish cuffs.

Can anyone please direct me to a reference for Prussian uniforms of this time that describes a single breasted coat with plain collar and cuffs for generals?

No one interested in Napoleonic Prussian generals? Figure painters? Uniform collectors?

King Friedrich Wilhelm III and Graf Gneisenau. The king's litzen would suggest a regimental uniform but again, all my references for Napoleonic Prussian army officer uniforms call for double breasted kollet and no mention of a single breasted frock or surtout.

Well-known portraits of Field Marshal Blucher and other famous Prussian generals of the period show them wearing a single breasted, dark blue habit with red collar and Swedish cuffs. I cannot find a reference that identifies this uniform, as they all refer to the double breasted full dress or undress uniform coats. Yet, the evidence exists in these portraits that this uniform was worn. Does anyone have more information on this order of dress? Was it commonly worn in the field or for walking out (as it was evidently worn for portraiture)?

There is an oft-published photo of the Kaiser, flanked by Hindenburg and Ludendorf, where the Kaiser is wearing a Kleiner rock with collar tabs that are on a dark, presumably red, patch. And, as you point out, generals, and certainly the Kaiser, wore whatever they wanted.

Most if not all the studio photos of generals in uberrocks were pre-war.

It is my understanding that the uberrock was never produced in field gray. It was a pre-war undress frock coat that was superseded post 1910 by the pale gray Littewka or later, the very similar field gray kleinerrock. (I believe the uberrock co-existed for a time, pre-war. with the Littewka). Photographs and paintings that appear to show a 'field gray' cloth color are likely explained by lighting and artistic license. Paintings, even by the celebrated Hugo Vogel, are notoriously poor references. How many Hindenburg paintings show his Third Foot Guards collar litzen with red underlay, instead of the correct yellow, for example?

Also, general officers uberrocks were usually of a very dark shade akin to a navy blue, almost black color. I have not seen a Bavarian officer's uberrock but suppose these may have been a lighter shade but the OP concerned Prussian uniform.

By HUGH: Thanks for that. At a casual glance, I'd have guessed that it was a ceremonial dagger. I know the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine both used daggers / dirks, but what about the Wehrmacht?

Not my field and probably a good subject for another thread. As I understand it, subject to correction by the greater minds on this forum, in World War One, Naval officers did wear daggers; there was no Luftwaffe as a separate branch; it was a part of the Heer although there were Navy pilots, particularly commanders of the Zeppellins and the very large 'giant' aircraft like the Zep. Staaken.

WWI German Army officers, I believe, wore only the sword-no daggers- as an edged side arm, with appropriate State portepee. Of course, officers were permitted pistols as functional side arms.

Now by WW2, I suppose covered in another forum, virtually every uniformed German, including a streetcar motorman, had a particular uniform and dagger. We've all seen the fancy coal miners' get ups.

OK, for the non-initiates - I've seen the velvet baton, but what's an interimstab? Got a picture?

The interimstab was the informal 'everyday' version of the Field Marshal's baton, worn with service dress. It resembled a cane with a fancy, symbolic silvered and gilt headpiece, through which a metallic corded lanyard and tassel, worked in the State colors, passed near the bottom of the headpiece/handle, where it joined the shaft. Each German state that had a military component and a rank list that included a field marshal (Bavaria, Saxony, etc.-usually the sovereign and other kings or Grand Dukes) had their own similar but different versions of this and the parade batons. The Bavarian ones are quite beautiful.

Of course, the various German state kings and Grand Dukes bestowed these honors on each other, and to other monarchs of the German royal clans, such as Ferdinand of Bulgaria, like challenge coins are exchanged today.

Here's a link to Hindenburg holding this gadangus. (HIs interimstab! Get your mind on a higher plane, please).

http://www.akpool.co.uk/postcards/24018393-kuenstler-ak-grabendorff-r-von-hindenburg-in-uniform

Hindenburg and Mackensen were sometimes photographed without a baton but it's a job to find a WW2 German field marshal in front of a camera without one.

Here's another topic of little or no interest:
When would a Prussian field marshal of the era 1870-1918 carry the parade baton as opposed to the interimstab cane? Yes, the obvious 'parade', but were there other occasions when FM's would tote their fancy velvet baton? Inquiring minds want to know. Well, not many, maybe.

As a corollary subject, some photos of WWI FM's show them sans batons of any kind, which is a marked contrast to their WW2 counterparts, who seem to have bathed and slept with at least an interimstab. Just saying.

This is the 'old style' Prussian General Officers' full dress or 'parade' uniform. It was worn on parade and gala occasions, with full medal bar, sash and neck orders, etc. The 'full monty'.