GMU

Hi Christophe, Thanks for this information. May I kindly ask what is the source of this? MvR's first confirmed victory was indeed on September 17, 1916, but I do think the ehrenbecher was awarded that very same date. Thanks, George

Hi Solomon, Thank you for the better scan, and for deciphering the text on #14 and #19. Award #14 is a bronze and marble bust of Kaiser Wilhelm II given to MvR on the occasion of his 25th birthday. This bust was personally given by the Kaiser to MvR on May 2, 1917. Richthofen wrote about this occasion describing it as a small present from the Kaiser. Below is a photo of the bust as displayed in MvR?s home. Now, I have a question. If this is the bust the Kaiser gave Richthofen on May 2, 1917, why does the bust have the described inscription with date September 18 1917 ? The other award (#19) is MVO 3 with war decoration KUK It is interesting to see that Richthofen had to aknowledge receipt of Lippe?s Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat by signing the document on October 23 1917. It is also very interesting that the document shows the other awards up to that date. Did MvR fill that out with his own hand? Is that his handwriting? Thanks again Solomon for sharing this document with us. George

Solomon, A wonderful document! Thanks I have seen this document before. It is pictured in Neal W O'Connor's book on aviation awards, Vol 7, page 270, but it is a small black and white picture. Now, thanks to you I have a better picture of it. Indeed, the document confirms that by that date, October 23, 1917, MvR had only received the MVO 4th. with swords from Bavaria. I have identified all the indicated awards except for #14 and #19. You have a better copy, and perhaps you (or anyone else at this forum) can help me identify these two awards.?? Thanks!

The correct date on the clasp should be 11 /11/ 1916

Hi Christophe, Yes, he was awarded the RAO on April 6th, 1918, and he was KIA on April 21st, so I understand why the RAO was not mounted on his bar. However this is not the point I wanted to raise. I do not understand why his bar was, as you say, rebuilt or rearranged. Why would this happen? I can think about two possibilities: a) The bar was badly damaged between 1918 and 1925 and the family needed to replace some piece or pieces that were lost or broken, or b) to include other important awards that were not included in wartime (like the RAO for example). Clearly the bar as shown on 1925 is identical to the bar he is shown wearing on several pictures of him taken during his last visit home by the end of 1917 (look the front cover of ?Mother of Eagles? by S Hayes Fischer and Neal O?Connor volume 6) One can clearly see that the bar is identical to the one displayed after the war, but one cannot determine from the photos if the MVO was with crown or not. So, clearly the bar was not rearranged in 1925 to add any new decoration like the RAO, which discards reason b. Do you really believe that the bar was mishandled or broken between 1918 and 1925? Do you believe that only the MVO 4th Class was lost, stolen or broken requiring a replacement? And if this was so, do you think that the family would have gathered (purchased) the higher order 4th with crown (which supposedly he did not earn) instead of the more common, cheaper and correct 4th class? This does not make sense to me. Look at how carefully his family preserved all of his mementos, his mother even erected a museum. I do not believe his bar was rearranged to replace the MVO 4th for the MVO 4th with Crown. It just does not make sense. I take the simple explanation. I think the medal bar displayed in 1925 is his original bar as it was during wartime, and that he indeed earned the MVO 4th with Crown, but there is no written record of it (which does not disprove him being awarded that decoration). George

Perhaps, this is a mystery. But if the bar was rearranged, why was the red eagle order not included as it should have?

Indeed, on April 29 1917 (look at table in post #1) At the moment Neal W O'Connor arranged his diplay, he thought MvR recived the 3 class with crown and swords. However, he rectified this error in volume 6 but his medals were sent to Berlin with the 3rd class. But, how do you explain the crown displayed on his original bar?

Hello, I have built this table listing MvR?s awards and the date of the award using as reference Neal W O'Connor's books on aviation awards and K Bodenschatz book ?Jagd in Flanders Himmel?. I am missing the date of some of the awards. Did MvR receive the other Hanseatic awards the same date as his L?beck award? Does anyone have more info on the dates of his Ottoman awards? He begun as an observer, but did he ever received or qualified for the observers badge? Can anyone in this Forum help me fill the missing dates? I will appreciate it very much Thanks, George

Never heard of them. They appear in books as genuine. Scary pieces these Flochs aren?t they? You guys knew it was Floch but you let me discover it for myself uh? Good teachers! Thanks again for the lesson. I hope, too, my learning curve isn?t so flat.

Rich, To me is more than that. I am new to this forum and to other forums, and for me is all about sharing, discussing, and above all, learning. When I posted the picture of my cross I truly believed it was good one, and I wanted to share it here. When you questioned the authenticity of the cross, I asked why it was so. The replies given to me did not fully satisfy me, especially when I compared my cross to crosses described in books such as the one I mentioned before to Bill. For example, a low date. Well, there are good crosses like that?? The pin where are crosses with similar pins?? The hallmark? and so forth. I do not collect WWII stuff and it was sufficient to me to compare this cross, which was given to me several years ago, to those shown on books like Geissler?s It wasn?t until Bill came up into the discussion and mentioned the pin, the hinge, and the clasp, that I began to really look further, especially going over the multiple threads in this and other forums. I am now convinced that this cross is not good. It has all the characteristics of what is called a Floch, which by the way, I haven?t heard of this before. I believe it is not mentioned in the books I have, and many books actually present Floch crosses as real (including Previtera?s Iron Time) Lesson learnt! I thus rectify to you guys. This cross is not genuine. Thanks for the discussion Bill and Rich, and I apologize for any trouble I may have caused. George

Hello Bill. An example with exactly the same dimensions as the piece I show, and with the same "1" hallmark is shown on pages 152 - 153 of DAS EISERNE KREUZ, 1813 bis heute, v. H. Gei?ler, Patzwall 1995 The piece I show has the following characteristics: a) 45mm x 45mm x 27mm b) Three piece construction with Iron Center c) Has a shallow swastika unlike what has been suggested d) Date numbers are even, not uneven as has been suggested before. e) Numbers do not touch lower rim as has been stated before. Although not as high as many EK I?s but in similar position to many other EK I?s f) The ?1? hallmark is typical of many other Deschlers made pieces g) The pin is similar to that shown on Gei?lers?s book. h) HOWEVER the hinge is not! Now, regardless of it being a Deschler or not, is this medal an authentic EK I ? I believe it is. But, is it a Deschler? Points a) through g) makes me believe it is. However, is h) enough to discard it as a Deschler given all the other characteristics? If it is, it is. If it is not, it isn?t. I am no seller and I am not pretending to pass a piece for what it is not. The only thing is that, as of now, I haven?t received a real argument against it being a Deschler. Regards, George

Comparing mine to literature examples, yes. Comparing mine to the other cross hallmarked "1", however, makes me doubt about the authenticity of the other cross. The hallmark doesn?t look like anything seen on literature.

Cross: 45 mm. x 45 mm. Cross arm 27 mm.

More.... Collar hooks Breast hook

Some more pictures

Dan, Thank you very much for your comments. Here are some more pictures. The ribbon of EKII and Albert Order is a single combined ribbon. The other one, of course, is that of the Saxe-Ernestine House Order. Thanks again. Regards, George

Thank you very much for the information. I appreciate very much your help. Regards, George

Why do you say so?

Hey Paul. Thank you very much for your help. I decided to post it here because you never know who will be looking where and when. Yes, I know, obtaining a photo would be difficult, but yet again...you never know... Thanks again. George

Hello, This Ulanka belonged to a Rittmeister Schmidt, who served with the 2nd. Royal Saxon Uhlan Regiment No. 18, garrisoned at Leipzig. The tunic has a tag with the officer?s name, the regiment number and the date 1915. The Ulanka has the new regimetal color (burgundy) after it was changed from ponceau rot (poppy red) in 1915. Thanks to Glenn at the Aerodrome Forum, I learnt that we are possibly talking about Rittmeister der Reserve Alfred Schmidt of 2. Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 18. Leutnant: 22.11.99 Oberleutnant d.R.: 14.8.08 A Rittmeister d.R: 14.8.13 G Paul Chepurko at the Wehrmacht Awards Forum wrote the following: "According to the 1914 Sachen Rangliste he had the following awards: 1. Sachen Albert Cross 2nd class 2. Landwehr long service 2nd class 3. Sachen Ernestine house order 2nd class 4. Sachen Altenburg Ernest medal Since he was a reserve officer he is not listed in the post war army honor ranklist" Can someone in this forum provide me with more information about this person? A picture perhaps??? Thanks, George

Here is mine.