JimZ

Yet another church.....

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The church of St. Publius in Floriana.....during the war and as it now stands tall and proud above the granaries built during the time of the knights

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(Pics coming off the net - in a just cause!!)

From left to right....

Mosta church as it stands now...pretty much as it stood during the war with less buildings around of course! Surprising to think that ferven catholic believers rushed to the church during air raids as opposed to underground shelters... If my memory serves me right, I believe that this dome is the 3rd largest unsupported dome in Europe - so lets face it - the church was a sitting duck (as well an excellent landmark for German and Italian pilots)

The interior of the dome ..once again looking as it used to during the war....

....until a bomb dropped into through the church dome and skidded across the floor not exploding and not killing anyone....

and finally...the crew of Royal Engineers who diffused the bomb proudly posing for their all important and well deserved pic.....

Great pics. Thanks for sharing.

Its just a bit of home really. My pleasure

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The Royal Opera house is still a gaping hole that one cannot miss....... especially if short of a parking place. Plans to erect a new building have not yet come to fruition. Maybe in another 60 years times....But its a case of "better the devil you know then the devil u don't"....better have ruins than something that totally kills the city of Valletta... "a city built by gentlemen for gentlemen" just to quothe the books....

(May I add that in 2000 I was responsible for co-ordinating the official Maltese Government Millenium Exhibition together with the Millenium Committee. The exhibition named "A future in the Image of Man" was housed underneath a tent erected in these ruins - a much desirable change from being a carpark even if only for two and a half months.....)

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(Wish I know whom to credit for this one!)

The Malta Royal Opera House in all its glory....

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(Wish I know whom to credit for this one!)

.....and after the Germans were done with it

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(Wish I know whom to credit for this one!)

The breakwater bridge after being struck by an Italian E boat forming part of an attack meant for within the harbour. The breakwater bridge (at the time complete) used to supporting 2 anti submarine nets. One of them can still be seen suspended from the part of the bridge that is still standing.

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J.Zammit

The remains of the break water bridge as it standing today. On harbour tours it is usual for the boats to take a shortcut through where the breakwater bridge once stood. In case you're on one do watch out!

Also, notice a number of WW2 coastal defence watch towers standing above the bastions built by the knights of St. john. There are at least 3 showing on this picture. The fortification towards the top right of the pic is Fort St. Elmo, one of the main fortifications built by the Order of St. John. This fort is sadly in a terrible state of repair and is open sometimes on Sundays for re-enectments in period costume. Last I remember the re-enecting was not worth the money but I'd pay that for a walk around this fort anytime. The prison scenes from Midnight Express (some of you might remember this film ) were filmed in Lower St. Angelo.

Jim

EXCELLENT subject! More, more!!!

There will be Rick! Its a promise.

These were identified as fakes on an other forum. In the the orderbook only the first two entries are original.

And the s/n range from the "3" would've had a mint mark in two lines, and the "4" a large curved down mint mark.

For the sake of completeness, the ORBs in post #45 sold for the handsome price of USD 762. That's gotta hurt even if this is a mere fraction of what an original 3rd and 4th award would cost (especially if accompanied by their order book)!!!

Jim

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J. Zammit

....of course, the Grand Harbour being what it is still still receives the odd navy visitor from time to time. Nowadays these old and mighty fortifications, although still standing proud are made to look kind of small in comparison to modern day warfare!

The harbour once full with the ships of the Royal Navy...

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Allan Lloyd http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/malta_harbour.htm

...now quiet and traquil....except for the odd cruise liners....

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J. Zammit

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J. Zammit

Photo collage showing the full view of the Grand harbour as mentioned above. Now devoid of ships, these fortifications and the towns behind them were the sight of some of the heaviest bombing raids in the 2nd world war.

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Old photo (Wish I know whom to credit for this one!)

Modern photo J. Zammit

View of Fort St. Angelo. Picture taken from Valletta. The original picture was taken from a gupost a few 100 metres up the street. My photo comes from one of the remaining gunposts where the WW2 Siege Memorial (bell and catafalque monument) were later constructed. This position offers the best view of the harbour with almost a 270 degree view of harbour and fortifications.

Some history about the fort:

Fort St Angelo stands at the head of the peninsula that separates Kalkara Creek from Dockyard Creek in a commanding position central to Grand Harbour. The date of its original construction is unknown and may date back to Roman times. It existed in the early medieval period at least. The remains of a tower that may date back to the 11th century when Malta was under Arab control can be traced among the more recent works. From the 14th century the Maltese Islands were under Aragonese rule and the fortification was known as Castello A Mare - The castle by the sea - home of the powerful Nava family, feudal lords of the island.

When the the Knights of Malta arrived in Malta in 1530, they chose to settle in Birgu, and Fort St Angelo became the seat of the Grand Master. The Knights made this their primary fortification and substantially reinforced and remodelled it. Fort St Angelo withstood the Turks during the Siege of Malta, though in the aftermath of that siege the Knights built the fortified city of Valletta on Mount Scibarras across the other side of Grand Harbour, and the administrative centre for the knights moved there.

With the coming of the British to Malta the fort retained its importance as a military installation, and the fort was listed as a ship, originally in 1912 as HMS Egremont, but in 1933 renamed as HMS St Angelo. HMS St. Angelo became Naval Headquarters. Several famous admirals, including Lord Mountbatten, were stationed there. During World War II the Fort was the Headquarters for Naval operations in the Mediterranean.

(Historical info obtained from Wikipedia - Brief and dry but sounds ok as far as my studies of Maltese history go.....)

I absolutely loved the threads in here and I thought that I'd start to put some before and today pics of Malta. I should be there in a couple of months time and I'll try to work on some good serious pics for this page based on old WW2 pics. It will take a while but it should be an interesting project nevertheless.

Jim

Some weeks back I was collecting data regarding the Order of the Badge of Honour, Red banner of labour and the Order of Friendship of Peoples. I am always sorry to see that labour and non militaty orders are always ins the shadow of their military counterparts although that is very understandable. Regrettably I cannot add much to the serial numbers submitted above for the Order of friendship of peoples. In the case of the Red banner of labour, the information obtained is not yet sufficient to submit.

Below are the serial numbers and award dates I have managed to obtain for the Order of the badge of honour. Please notice some overlapping of serial numbers in the 70s. I will be looking to update this list as I obtain further scans/info in rel to the Badge of Honour booklets.

Serial # Award date

102870 11/12/1948

268296 04/07/1957

276582 22/03/1966

285778 31/12/1965

403455 29/07/1966

407314 1966 *

414086 26/08/1966

428663 1966 *

459655 1966 *

484227 12/12/1967

552929 08/04/1971

569529 12/12/1973

673808 1971 *

618531 08/04/1971

795733 08/04/1971

815702 1971 *

913281 27/02/1974

966957 13/12/1972

1144887 24/12/1977

1192788 10/03/1976

1200059 06/04/1976

1212055 04/031980

1293890 22/12/1977

1297935 05/05/1981

1435598 23/02/1981

1511410 22/07/1985

1557761 13/08/1986

1574131 04/05/1989

* DATE AND MONTH ON ORDER BOOKLET NOT VISIBLE IN SCAN

ANYONE WHO CAN CONTRIBUTE MORE TO THIS COMPILATION OF SERIAL NUMBERS ANS AWAR DATA PLEASE SUBMIT YOUR INFO AS FOLLOWS ON THE FOLLOWING THREADS:

Order friendship of peoples

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10160

Order of red banner labour

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10145

Order of the badge of honour

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10147

Thanks and regards,

Jim

Thanks for the pic posts. Is the white enemalled surface slightly stippled? What, if any criteria was used to award it and in what quantities? What other instances are there for similar revolution related awards to have been issued and any pics that can be posted.

Alas such awards, although very interesting, fall outside my very specific area of collection and study so its good for me to find out more about them!

Jim

I don't see what the problem is!! I've already mentioned that I spoke with Paul McDaniell yesterday and he confirmed my findings that these were NOT fantasy pieces and were in fact GENUINE MINT ERRORS that were "gobbled up by collectors. I'll make some calls to confirm whether any were known to have been awarded.

Doc

Cool Doc!

In the meantime.....Any of the heavyweight collectors or dealers out there ever had documented groups including these variation medals in their posession?

Jim

Hello Jim

Can you forward to me that research on the mint error medals?

If so email me at : ronboomsma@shaw.ca

Thanks

Erm Ron...Hi!

... sure you don't mean Doc instead???

Jim

I have noticed that the "Soviet & Eastern Block Orders, Medals and Decorations" has a vast wealth of information spread all over the place. I would like to propose that we establish a thread in parallel to the "Fake orderbooks" to serve as a database for orders and decorations on the market that are fake or suspected as being such. Ideally if members can post pics of fakes or suspected fakes for member review and comment, we can have all future info concentrated in one area withinn the forum.

Appreciate comments and suggestions in this regard from the long standing members of this community of collectors and I hope this idea can both take off as well as be of assistance to whoever needs the info to be contained in this database.

Many thanks,

Jim

Thanks Andreas

So technically an order book can be issued in 1945 and have orders awarded even so many years later. That is interesting from the point of view that fakers can wreak havoc on the order books if they have an idea of the serial number sequencing of orders and medals. Which will in turn of course make it even harder for us collectors to decide between the genuine group + award document and the 'fabricated' group + tampered booklet!! Of course the proof of this cake will be in the researching! But sometimes it may be too late to do anything at all about it...unless one has a lifetime guarantee/refund should that group prove to be fake!

Jim

PS. On this note I would like to start a new thread called "Fake Orders and medals database" to compliment the "Fake booklets" thread. I hope this idea can take off and perhaps, in this way, have an in house reference of what the market is throwing at us.

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I was out on patrol and I've come across the above..... alas I cannot bring larger photos or a focussed photo of the '3rd award'. Serial numbers 10764 for the 3rd award and 926 for the 4th award....so far sounds good. What about the fact that 926 (#4) can date anywhere between 1944 and 1948 (overlapping of serial nos) whilst 10764 (#3) is probably a 1970s award..... is my logic right? Does that rip the booklet apart? Now to look at the medals without much detail....does the patination look terrible. Mint marks... Andrey? .... Gerd? .... Comments? I look at the obverse and I cannot say that I particularly like the shape of the star, the torch head and flame and especially the shape of the suspension ring! Nor do I like centre 'bead' under the number which seems too long. Then again, I was denied larger and different pics and once again....this is merely observation regrettably and not hands on examination!

Now as a result of all this I have a query that I would like a reply to......When a soldier was issued an 'Ordenskaya Kneeshka' I suppose he kept this all along and it was usual practice to update this booklet as the soldier receieved new orders or numbered medals. Is that the case? Technically, is it feasable to say that a soldier working starting his career in the war, could have an Order booklet issued for his first red star or bravery medal and then proceed into a 20 something year career in the Red Army with the same Order Booklet being updated with any subsequent numbered awards that might have been awarded to him......

Regards!

Jim

Interesting discussion.

As a collector I find it important to clearly define whether or not these medals were ever issued and bestowed on recipients or whether they were kept in a box in the mint (until some time in the 1990s). My perosnal reason for this would be that whereas I am a keen collector of variations, I will draw the line on a medal (or variation thereof) that has not been awarded. Personally such a medal would not be relevant to my collectation. Of course I would expect many (especially variation collectors) to disagree with me.

Until today I read this thread I had no reasons to doubt that such medals had been issued by the mint but I was also under the impression that they had been awarded. I consider the challenge as to whether or not they were actually awarded very important as it is part of a learning process.

My questions would be as follows:

Are there any documented groups with these mint error medals?

Have the erroneously issued medals been documented by mint in some archives etc.

When is the earliest mention of these medals and what is the source?

In many ways I start to get the same uncanny feeling about as I have about the so called gold variation of the military veterans. Whereas I or others have seen pics of this medal in collections, I have yet to see (or hear someone who has) proper documentary evidence theroef (period photos of awardees with this medal would be a lovely source - Of course...where will we find photo evidence of an awardee wearing these campaign medals back to front???!!!)

Regards,

Jim

Thanks guys!

If u have pics of a genuine piece do take the trouble to scan and post....or better....if anyone has a genuine piece and can actually post his pics - This can hardly look like the real Mc Coy..... which must be a real beauty!

Thanks.

Jim

PS - Good to see you back Doc

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I came across this item initially thinking it could be a red banner - apparantly not. I am baffled... as I have never seen such a piece before. What should probably be enamel is not entirely convincing at first glance ... but the design is intriguing as is the screwback. (I am trying to get more pics of this). Does anyone have any ideas?

It reads "Proletariat of the world unite..... warriors of the red guards and red partisans"

I use 'warriors' in my translation for lack of a better word.... maybe 'fighetrs' might be more approriate....

Regards,

Jim

Thanks Gerd. In fact I had already reviewed Andrei's site prior to posting when I was trying to match the obverse. But I should give the site a much more detailed look in particular with regards to mint marks vs serial numbering....that's my homework for this week!

From what you mentioned, I am concluding that I put too much focus and effort looking at the obverse of this medal (which of course still works) when the reverse is probably less complicated to read and tells the story much faster if you know what to look for!!!