Alan Baird

Hi Simon, Thank you for your comments. Some of these medals which I have collected over the years, were specifically collected because they had really interesting stories to them and I have never shared these stories. Maybe it is time to share that history. regards, Alan. I forgot to add this photograph of Police Constable 661 George Sims engraved medal details. My camera is not the greatest at close-quarters photography but I have added it anyway. Alan.

''Evidence the Evidence.'' The following photographs relates to Police Constable 661 George James Sims of the City of London Police and his City of London Police Jubilee medal of 1887. He joined on the 15th of March in 1866 and retired on pension on the 31st of January in 1895. We know his City of London Police Jubilee medal of 1887 is original because :- [a] The Records. [City of London Police, Census records etc.] The Physical Properties. [The details/style/engraving, the weight etc.] [c] The Family Connection. [Items relate to his daughters.] Because we have excellent evidence on PC 661 George James Sims, even the most ordinary and basic details become more important. For example the medal ribbon bar pin which is located at the top of the ribbon, we can confirm it is both original and contemporary and I have seen other examples of this same ribbon bar on such medals. Therefore when we examine PC 661 George James Sims medal with PC 881 Edward Watkins medal we can evidence they are both original and contemporary. This is just one little point about the importance of such evidence. Alan.

Hi Mike, The quote I like best is, ''Elementary, my dear Watson,'' because I believe Conan Doyle never actually used this phrase in any of his stories. Alan.

Hi, Thanks Mike. When I was taking the above pictures for this post, I was handling the medal very carefully because I felt this medal was different from all the other medals I have. It was just a feeling but in reality they are all the same Anyway, I have taken more photographs of another example of a City of London Police Jubilee medal from 1887 so I could show the engraved details but alas my old camera blurred 11 out of the 12 close-ups. The one photograph that was reasonable is limited in what it covers but the story of this City Policeman is really quite interesting so I will include these pictures. This group of medals belongs to Detective Chief Inspector Frederick Charles Birch Holmes who joined the City of London Police on the 30th of August in 1878. In 1887 he is, 'PC 483 F Holmes.' He would have been a detective around this period and remained a Detective up until he retired from the City of London Police on the 11th of February in 1909, as a Detective Chief. Inspector. There are numerous Old Bailey trial records which he is involved in. What is amusing...…….. is that around this period when he was promoted to Detective Holmes...…... Arthur Conan Doyle was publishing his first story, 'A Study in Scarlet,' in 1886 and from there the story of Sherlock Holmes swept London and the Country. I am not say the two events are connected, what I am saying is that he must have taken some stick about being Detective Holmes in Victorian London during this period. Here is another photo of Detective Chief Inspector Holmes's medals.

My apologies if I am doing this all wrong, as all the replies I complete..... just seem to merge into one and I am not sure if that is the best way to do it. I will attach another photograph of Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins and see what happens. I am away tomorrow and will probably not be back until Thursday. regards, Alan.

Hello, The first two photographs merged with the original entry, instead of being attached to a separate reply but it does not matter. Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins, City of London Police medal, as you can see, has a very nice patina and is engraved with the correct details and in the correct style. I know this because I have compared the medal with other City of London Police Jubilee medals from 1887 which I have in my collection. I may post an example later. The medal is also the correct weight and even the ribbon bar is original, as I have seen other City of London medals fitted with the same ribbon bar pin. Alan. I am going to try and place another photograph which hopefully I will attach to this separate reply. Alan My camera is quite old but I am quite happy with the results. The camera's weakness is in close-up's but these have come out O.K. Lets try another download. This one will show what Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins looked like from an artist sketch from 1888. Alan.

Hello, Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins served in the City of London Police from 15/5/1871 to 28/5/1896. Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins...…. his most famous moment was in the early hours of the 30th of September in 1888 when he discovered the body of Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square [Jack the Ripper had struck again.]…………... Now before I explain this entry, I think it would be best to give you some background information. My name is Alan Baird and for many years I have collected Victorian/Edwardian etc Police medals ie Queen Victoria Metropolitan Police Jubilee medal for 1887, Queen Victoria Metropolitan Police Jubilee medal for 1897 [or clasp] and the Metropolitan Police Coronation medals for 1902 and 1911. The collection also covered, to a much smaller extent, City of London Police medals, as detailed above. Each individual policeman was extensively researched. At its peak, my collection included approximately 125 policemen and their individual medal or group of medals. Obviously, my collection's time frame covered the, 'Jack the Ripper murder period in 1888' but I don not class myself as a Ripperologist but rather more of an amateur researcher and researching within a very specific period and subject. At regular intervals, I would search the usual sources ie ebay etc to check for any new medals going onto the market but I have found that, on many occasions, that it is the auction sites and overseas dealers that can be a very good source of quality medals and at reasonable prices. I have bought from America, Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, Portugal and South Africa etc. The relevance of this information will become clear shortly. I will post this and be back very shortly Alan. I hope I add these pictures correctly onto the site and I am not sure about the size of the photo's or how many could go on each reply. So I will just wing it. Alan. Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins City of London Police. Alan.

Hello everybody, I have just been given an article which I think competes the story for PC William Ind and his Special Duties in Selby. I would not know where to start in transferring this article onto this site so I shall just write out the article..... The Beverley Echo. [Tuesday, November 21, 1893.] Local News. The Powder Magazine at Selby, - The Royal Scots Lothian Regiment will not in future furnish the guard to the North-Eastern Military District Powder Magazine, near Selby. The duty will, it is said, now be undertaken by the Metropolitan Police. Obviously, this is an official statement but all the preparations would have already been taken to ensure a safe and orderly handover from the Military to the Metropolitan Police. PC William Ind started his attachment to Special Duties with the Commissioner's Office on the 14/1/1893. The preparation would have commenced many months before the official handover deadline. Therefore he was one of a very small handful of Policemen that now guarded the Magazine. There were other civilians that also worked in the compound because I read an article about an ex-army soldier that worked as a clerk at the Powder Magazine etc. Alan.

Hi, I would suspect that the 'Ind family' from Wiltshire and Gloucestershire are connected somewhere but my initial searches did not find that connection. PC William Ind's father George Ind [1817-1884] had a sister 'Lucy Ann Ind,' who died on the 26/10/1861 in Avening, in Gloucestershire but that's the nearest I got. I could have easily missed something. Anyway that is the results so far. Alan.

Many thanks Deelibod, I will definitely check it out and as you say the name 'Ind' is quite unusual. Your information is especially helpful because I come from the Scottish Borders so I would never have known the two area's are only about 40 miles apart. many thanks and I will post any relevant information I may find. Alan.

Hi Nick, I am not really sure...….. Queen Victoria's full title would have been something like, ''Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and Empress of India.' 'Victoria Regina' must be the agreed summary of that...... for adding to smaller items such as medals and coins etc but I don't really know. Alan.

This is Police Constable Ind's police medals :- Queen Victoria Metropolitan Police Jubilee medal from 1887 when he was a PC in 'B' or Chelsea [Westminster] division. The Queen Victoria Metropolitan Jubilee Clasp from 1897 when he was a PC Commissioner's Office but assigned to the War Dept. Office in Selby. Metropolitan Police Coronation medal of 1902 when he was PC Commissioner's Office but assigned to the War Dept. Office in Selby. I might have cropped the photo too much so that it fitted into the file size. Alan.

Hopefully another picture of the powder magazine. Alan Hi again, Hopefully another picture of the powder magazine. Alan.

Hello, I hope I have attached the photograph of the Powder Magazine properly so you can see what it was like. [Built in 1889]. Dave...without your information, I would have definitely gone on the wrong track and still trying to solve the mystery so many thanks. Alan

Hello, I believe Dave was right and that there was a requirement for the Metropolitan Police to protect War Department establishments and as he said,' the Metropolitan Police provided the Policemen and the War Department would cover the costs of such arrangements.' I also now believe that on the 14th of January in 1893, when PC William Ind was assigned to the Commissioner's Office at Scotland Yard ...…..he was probably transferred straight away to the War Dept. Office in Selby. The Powder Magazine built in 1889 by the War Department was approximately 4 years old when PC William Ind arrived to take up his duties, guarding the magazine and compound. The site had three cottages on it for the Policemen who guarded the compound. I am not sure when these were built or if PC William Ind and his family actually resided in one of them. I do know that this site was guarded up until about 1970 when the whole site was sold to the local farmer. The Powder Magazine is still there to this day but it is a bit run down, to say the least. The farmer, I believe, is working with English Heritage to get the building listed and the site developed. There is a Sheila Newsome from the Selby History Group who has been invaluable in researching this and even supplied me with some photographs of the Powder Magazine at Barlby. I am not sure how to attach these, so I may post this entry now and try to attach a photograph later. regards, Alan.

Hi, This is just to update things, I asked the Selby and District Family History Group if they have any information on this subject and they are going to get back to me after their next meeting. They did say that there was a munitions factory in Magazine Road, in Barlby which might have a connection but it is too early to tell. Alan. I have just found a reference to a ''Powder Magazine that was built by the War Department in 1889.'' which might be relevant to the story. This relates to Barlby which is next to Selby in Yorkshire.

Hi Dave, The information is very useful and much appreciated. As you say the Metropolitan Police were responsible for the dockyards ie Portsmouth [1st divn./282 policemen], Devonport [2nd divn./291] and Chatham [3rd divn./221] etc but those were large establishments where the Police lived and worked and were mostly recuited from the local population, except for those that were transferred into the division. The figures for the establishments relate to 1902 records.. PC Willian Ind was one Police Constable going to the War Dept. Office in Selby which must have been more like a village than a town in 1901 to 1904. I just can't imagine that particular War Dept. Office being anything but small so maybe it was the importance of the projects or work being carried out that warranted the Metropolitan Police presence? I researched a PC Jesse Barlow, some time ago and he was with 'A' or Whitehall division through-out his whole pensionable career and also served, for a number of years, with the Windsor Castle Metropolitan Police security detail protecting Queen Victoria. PC Barlow would travel with the Royal Party to Osbourne House and Barmoral Castle during the season but would always return to the family home in Windsor at the end of the visit. PC William Ind, on the other hand, served year after year at Selby and although he was assigned to the Commissioner's Office, never appears to have returned to London. I just feel something is still missing in the Selby story. Once again Dave thanks you for your information, it made me think from different angles. Alan.

Hello, I find I have a very strange mystery which I was hoping somebody can help to solve. Information and idea's most welcome. Metropolitan Police Constable William Ind was attached to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner's Office from 14/1/1893 to 18/4/1904. Special duties involved protecting Government departments, public companies or private individuals etc and he was assigned to be, ''Employed at War Dept. Station, Selby.'' We know this because that information is clearly detailed on his pension records from 1904....but he was employed to work at the War Dept, Station at Selby, in Yorkshire. The England Census of 1901, the records show that PC William Ind and family as residing at the White House, at Barlby, in Yorkshire. That entry includes PC William Ind [42], his wife Eliza [47] and their children Clara Elizabeth [11] and Daisy Priscilla Ind [9]. PC William Ind's Metropolitan Police pension records dated 18/4/1904 detail his current address as being, ''1 Victoria Terrace, Barlby Road, Selby.'' It also confirms that this is the address he intends to reside at on leaving the Metropolitan Police. It also confirms that his pension is to be paid into the, ''Selby Post Office.'' Therefore we can evidence with the various records that he was on special duties at the War Dept. Station Selby, in Yorkshire from at least 1901 to 1904 and probably for a much longer period than that. In the England Census of 1911, we find that William Ind and his family ae residing at , '3 New Street, in Selby, in Yorkshire.'' William Ind is now employed as a, ''cycle dealer.'' Here are some general details on PC William Ind. William Ind was born in Wootton Bassett, in Wiltshire, on the 14/6/1858. Joined the Metropolitan Police 14/4/1879 - PC - 'A' or Whitehall division. Warrant number 63496. Served also in 'H' or Whitechapel divn. 'L' or Lambeth divn. 'B' or Chelsea division. Transferred to the Commissioner's Office 14/1/1893 and remained there until he retired on pension in 1904. Question why would a Metropolitan Police Constable be employed to work in Selby, in Yorkshire and why would the Metropolitan Police pay for such an arrangement? What could be so important or secret or valuable that it warrants this deployment from the Metropolitan Police? What makes the War Dept. Office in Selby unique, as I have never heard of such an unusual arrangement being done before by the Metropolitan Police. This deployment also continued for years so what was so vital and important in the Selby area. Hopefully somebody can help with information or suggestions. Many thanks Alan.

Hello, This is just for information and to finish the story. I have not yet managed to locate this particular individuals Royal Navy service number but I did actually find a member of his family on Ancestry. The older members of the family knew that their brother had served on HMS London at the Yangtze in 1949. After he returned home, he spoke to one brother in particular, about what it had been like during the incident. I am still hopeful his service number may eventually be found from within the family. Alan. The End.

Many thanks Egorka, every little bit counts. regards, Alan.

There is another site which I have found that is quite interesting and deals with the Navy etc and that is the, ''maritimequest'' site. They certainly appear to have specific knowledge regarding the Yangtze Incident and so I have left a message regarding George Desmond Jonathon Smith. It might be a long shot but for me it is worth checking. regards, Alan.

Hello, Thank you for the suggestions especially the, 'british medal forum,' which seems a particularly good idea. I have been hoping that a collector/researcher/historian that specialised in, 'HMS London,' or the 'Yangtze Incident,' might have relevant ship crew lists within their personal data which would have been easiest and quickest way to identify this possible crew member of HMS London. Since he remained in the same Police Constabulary from 1/11/1949, it might be possible to obtain his Navy serial number from his original Police admission paperwork. One of the main problems with this strategy is that there were several amalgamations of County and provincial police forces over the years which might complicate that line of research. Living in the Scottish Borders is extremely nice but unfortunately it means visiting the National Archives etc is extremely unlikely especially for only one query. I would suspect that no submission for information to the MOD would be accepted without his Navy serial number being attached. Therefore it may be the case that the story is known but it is not possible to factually confirm that story. regards, Alan. PS apologies for any mistakes but I not that great at typing.

Hello, I was wondering if anybody could give me some advice on how to research the following individual from the Royal Navy who served during War War II. The problem is I do not have his service number and so I do not know if it would even be possible to identity him. Hopefully I can get some advice. [a] George Desmond Jonathon Smith. D.O.B. 1928. Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, England. [c] Served in the Royal Navy from 1944 to 1949. [d] Served on HMS London in 1949, during the Yangtze Incident. [e] Released from the Navy and on the 1/11/1949 joined the Police. Without the service number, I have no idea on how to try and verify the information that I have been given. Any help would be much appreciated. I have only ever done one other entry on this excellent site so if I make any mistakes just let me know. regards, Alan. Hi, I forgot to say that I read somewhere that only 1450 Naval General Service medals with the bar ''Yangtzi 1949'' were issued to military personnel so you would think that there would be a readily available official list of those who received the award but I can't seem to find it. regards, Alan.

Thanks for the thumbs up......and your right, a simple thing like understanding and not guessing, what A3 meant, did help a great deal in finishing my research. The Gentleman's Military Interest Club is a very nice and helpful site....so many thanks. It always feel strange when a Metropolitan Policeman who served from the 1920's to 1950's is difficult to research but if you take a Metropolitan Policeman from Victorian times, then you can discover his whole life story ie work, family etc and even complete the research in just a few hours. Alan.

Hi, This is just for general information but it seems there were 2 Inspector Law's serving at New Scotland Yard during this period ie 1940/50's. The other, ' Inspector Law,' was Detective Inspector Percy Law who was in charge of the Photographic Section, part of the CID, at New Scotland Yard. There was a Metropolitan Police recruitment advertisement in the papers in the 1950's which included a photograph of a plain clothes detective photographing a gun to highlight and record the fingerprints on the pistol. The same picture is on one of the, 'Boy's Annual books,' of that period and that picture is of Percy Law. Obviously, there would have been a great many people working in New Scotland Yard but who knows, they may have even known each other and I suppose there must have been quite a few famous characters/detectives that were around during this period ie Fabian etc. Alan.