W McSwiggan

Check out this link for details (in German) of a massive collection theft. Text and pictures to be found at this location: https://www.weitze.net/d/diebstahl.htm I'm at a loss for words!

Thanks all - unfortunately - the question was sent to me by a friend and this is the only image I have. When I zoom in I see the British style backings but the image is to blurred for me to be sure what I'm seeing beyond colors behind the gongs themselves. You've done well considering the input. Question - could the Purple Heart be an Air Medal?

Hey Rick - your eyes are better than mine in these things - what beside the St. John's at the throat is this guy wearing? Certainly has the look of British mounting but sources claim he's "all-American"

Excellent! Just what I was looking for except the parts I should have been able to figure out by myself? The Nimmergut price catalogue makes much of this clear. Thank you Rick ? once again - for enlightening this novice. Beautiful medal bar!

My latest confusion stems from these two F?rstentumer. Initially they shared the Ehrenkreuz and then decided to split the Hausorden into two distinct orders for the individual principalities. Think I understand that... I believe that they both had orders for Kunst & Wissenschaft that were distinct as well ? Lippe?s being the Lippische Rose & Shaumburg?s simply the Orden f?r Kunst und Wissenschaft. Where I am uncertain is two orders ? first the Bertha-Orden, a Damen-orden, was it shared or solely used in one or the other? More important ? for me ? is the Leopold-Orden. Was it solely awarded in Lippe-Detmold or in both. I understand that it was intended for merit (Verdienst) for both civil and military service but do know under what circumstances ? attainment of high rank ? especially outstanding performance? Was it awarded with swords? Was it employed during the Great War? Any insight would be appreciated.

Die tragbaren Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reiches by Dr. Waldemar Hesse Edlen von Hessenthau & Georg Schreiber or Honours and Awards of the German States This is a reprint by the Naval & Military Press. Can not find an ISBN anywhere on my copy. Quite reasonable pricing (paperback) and easily obtained ? NMP has a web site: www.naval-military-press.co.uk Hint - pay the extra amount for shipping...

I?ve often heard that rampant anti-Semitism was a long-standing feature of the German cultural landscape. I am not sure that I ever gave this theory much credence or at least was troubled to think that the people of the German Empire were distinctly different from other European nationalities. Clearly the III Reich experience lends credibility to such speculation however ? this thread would suggest that was not the case in my estimation. Here we have examples of persons of Jewish ancestry rising to the highest levels and receiving the most coveted forms of recognition. Gives one things to ponder.

Thanks Brian, That is a couple of impressive ancestors you have there! wem

Brian, Thanks for your information! Pretty interesting stuff to me. Do you have any insight as to the "why" the General was ennobled in 1846? wem

OK ? didn?t seem to hit a nerve with that! Have had a chance to search my meager library and found the following statements per Werlich: Bavaria ? MMJO conferred knighthood for all grades & first 2 out of 4 grades of the Bavarian Crown did as well. Hannover ? Guelphic Order - top 3 of 4 grades conferred knighthood. Prussia ? Black Eagle before 1847 was awarded only to nobles until 1847. After that date, it conferred hereditary nobility. Combined Saxon Duchies ? SEHO ? Grand Cross conferred knighthood. W?rttemburg ? Frederick Order - up to 1856 conferred knighthood. After that date it was reorganized from a single class to 4 classes and knighthood was abolished.

Back again! As you may have noticed ? I don?t have much to contribute other than questions that may be of some interest? In keeping with that behavior, I solicit your inputs on what Imperial Orders actually conferred nobility ? ?von? or even my personal favorite ?Ritter von?. I?m not sure if we ever completely determined if the admission to the Black Eagle Order entitled a commoner to a ?von?. It may have been that ? as we say in New England ? ?you can?t get theyah from heah? ? and being noble was a prerequisite for the order either by statute or because the recipient would have snagged a ?von? earlier as a normal part of the progression through the lesser orders. That said, I would like to start a discussion identifying those orders that conferred nobility on a commoner. The obvious is the Bavarian Military Max Joseph Order. I understand that some other Bavarian orders - in their higher grades also conferred knighthood (Ritter). Does anyone know which they were and what grades of the orders applied? I believe that in the earlier years of the order the W?rttemburg Frederick Order conferred knighthood ? can anyone confirm? What grade? Were there other sovereigns with such orders and if so ? can they be identified? wem

Glen - thanks - that post & scan were great! I didn't say that quite right and hope I didn't offend. I meant to say that I suspected that to be the case but until your statement I couldn't be sure as I have no access to to rank lists. Regards, Wayne

Thanks Glen! Thought so but have no access to proof! wem

Hi Wild Card, Working largely off recall and conjecture, I will suggest the following: When instituted, the PKO was sandwiched between the eagles ? one the high house order and the other a merit order. At that point in time, the sovereign likely did not foresee the calamity to which his kingdom was to come, hence his interest in keeping the SAO exclusive. This concern for the future clearly evaporated in the waning days of the empire. Given that ? it is clear to me that the intent was to buffer the Black Eagle to protect its prestige by allowing an additional, in itself exclusive, rung in the merit ladder. I have no idea as to who the awardees were so can make no input as to the actual usage patterns. I can make no input as to your question ? interesting as it is relating this order to merit crosses. Sorry as none of the above is likely to be news to you - just my interpretation. Regards, wem

Wild Card, This just keeps getting more interesting to me with each post! Thank you for participating in this discussion. Rick's input suggested that the trigger may have been - not promotion to GdI,K,A rather the assumption of high command while holding that rank. In direct discussion with Rick, he posited that the moritorium for awards during the Great War was for those who were not noble already - the motive here perhaps to preserve the exclusive nature of the "club" as it were. Do you know if von Below was already a member of the aristocracy before his award? Regards, wem

Gadzooks Rickster! Is that a RAO with crown, oakleaves and swords on ring???? Phew! Gotta love that photo - you've been holding out on me haven't you?

Here's the rub - my source was in English which I translated to German. It is likely that the English Lt. Gen. was derived from Gen. der Inf, etc rather than GenLt. In this case 3 stars = 3 stars... I likely blew the translation! Hence your illustious forebear as GenLt did not qualify. Of course, there is still a strong possibility that there was a moritoriun during the Great War. Gads - I'm enjoying this!!!

Wild Card, Interesting things I?m learning here. I thought that the Black Eagle insignia were common to all members of the order much like the Garter. Per your statement, the collar was an additional distinction! Per the rest of this conversation, I need to clarify. I do know that the Black Eagle is the premier Prussian House Order. As such, it was awarded to royalty and high ranked nobles based on genetic merit only. Beyond that, these awards are often made as special marks of distinction for those outside the high nobility/royalty circles and this is what I?m trying to determine. One can argue that the attainment of high military rank (outside the royal circle) is distinct. I certainly aspired to high rank during my misguided youth & saw that as a worthy goal if achieved honestly. Luminaries such as von Moltke and von Hindenburg wore this order and were not (again per my limited understanding) highly placed in the nobility pecking order. To restate, the major purposes of my question were to determine if the order and appended ?von? were solely the function of attainment of a particular rank. If by exception a very deserving junior general or even colonel might be admitted to the order especially if not carrying a noble pedigree. Additionally, what is the explanation behind the exclusion of Ludendorff? The answer could be as simple as this was a result of Ludendorff?s loss of favor or lack of popularity. Another could be the simple desire to keep the order exclusive which would have been threatened by the expansion of the military and resultant multiplication of the numbers of generals. A very good friend suggested the latter and that the resultant change was, during the Great War; no pedigree meant no Black Eagle and no ?von?. I do understand the importance of other sources of recognition such as the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, Pour le Merite, Red Eagle, Crown Order and higher grades of the Hohenzollern. Certainly, other states added to the array of markers of distinction as well. Again, my motive was to learn what if any significance should be attached to a military man wearing the Black Eagle and then ? why not Ludendorff. Wayne

Wild Card! I'm impressed with your references! May I ask - your source for the roll of the order - is it Nimmergut of (hopefully) somewhere on-line? I found another source that suggested that the order came with promotion to generalleutnant - seems unlikely to me. Am I correct that Ludendorff was not a member? I have read that the initial statutes required proof of nobility as a prerequisite for the award. Initially the order was restricted to 30 nobles. If this is all about nobility - my interest wanes somewhat. If it is about recognition for high achievement - especially military - I remain VERY interested in learning more from more reliable sources than those to which I presently have access - present company excluded of course! Thank you very much for your contributions! wem

Ludendorff too... My understanding is that the award of the Black Eagle was effectively automatic upon promotion to General der Infantry, etc or the Naval equivalent. This award promoted a commoner to the demi-aristocracy, entitling the winner to a ?von? appended to his name. If I am incorrect in the above statements, comments to that effect are welcome. That said, note that Erich Ludendorff was not a ?von? and I am not sure that he was awarded the SAO either. Any explanations for this? Given his rank and as a recipient of the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross and his incredible power by war?s end, this seems strange. Was there a moritorium of awards during the Great War or perhaps a restriction to nobles only? ORRRRR did ol? Eric simply make powerful enemies?

Whoa - will you look at that! I'm not a "proby" any more! I'm going to spend the rest of the day (after work unfortunately) testing my new magic powers! No pimples either!

Death shields were probably the analog to the funeral heraldic devices used in many countries upon the passing of one entitled to arms. I assume that this requirement was intended to memorialize the deceased. The English term being hatchments. ?Seelmessen? is a bit of a mystery for me but I suspect it is an ordered series of prayers such as the rosary. ?markischen? most certainly refers to those nobles resident in the Margrave?s (Brandenburg) county. Well, I have to say this was great! Thanks to all for your efforts. Learned a bunch about a pretty arcane topic! Gentlemen - let's do it again soon!

If I read the text at the site Dave to which linked us correctly, this sounds like a order for nobility with a special devotion to the Virgin Mary. Dedicated to prayer & charitable works. After the Reformation, died out only to be re-established without specific religious (denomination) affiliation. Never seems to have attained escape velocity the second time around. This order does not seem to be of great historical significance. Other opinions? My German is shaky. PS - Rick, I can hardly wait especially now that I know I will not be cursed with zits...

Gerd, That would be beyond excellent. Don't have the books myself - can't imagine ever being able to afford them... That said, I hope wild card will be able to post selected scans but as we are "probationary" new members - I don't know if that is possible. Let's hope! Wayne

Hello Wild Card & welcome, Thank you very much for the information you provided. I've not been able to find information on this one until your post beyond the entry in H&S and a "Cigarette" card. Certainly not significant in the modern era per your information. Doesn't sound as though it was on a par with the Garter either. I appreciate your time and effort. Thanks again. I can appreciate your "German" problem - same problem here - my high school teacher would not be pleased to know that my underachieving ways have continued... Anyone willing/able to help the "language impaired"? Wayne