Brian Wolfe

Hello Fellows,

Sorry that I have not been able to add to this post yet this weekend as I have been tied up restoring a number of collectables in the shop. More on that another time.

The document I have posted is actually from a local Legion Branch with a Silver Cross Mother's Association. These associations raised money and lent moral support to those women who lost loved ones in the wars. This came my way as it was it being discarded after a local branch of the Royal Canadian Legion moved into new quarters. It had remained behind for several years along with many other artifacts such as trophys and executive membership lists in bronze on wooded plaques in the former Legion Branch building. This particular document was on its way to the garbage dump when I rescued it as the building was slated for demolition. The owner of the building granted me salvage to anything I wanted from the interior, just to be clear on the legalities of my right of ownership.

As to rarity, I would say that you will not see many, if any, others in the hands of a private collector. From what I understand not all Legion Branches had Silver Cross Mother's Associations and many that did have them have long since been disbanded. At best this would mean that there were less documents than number of Legion Branches and fewer yet that would have survived once the Branch's Silver Cross Associations were disbanded.

A rare document and one that still survives only through luck.

Regards

Brian

Hello Everyone,

There are certain items that have become iconic in history, Martini-Henry rifles, Japanese Swords, Bobby's Helmet, some uniforms and in the case of the post link below the military sun helmet.

This is a very interesting and informitive website and if you have even the slightest interest in sun helmets I suggest you check it out.

http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/

Regards

Brian

Hello Everyone.

I could have sworn that I had posted a photo of this Canadian Memorial Cross Association document before but I cannot find it on the forum so I must have been mistaken. Oh, for a doller evertime I have been wrong...

It was my intention to repalce the previous photo, which I now can't locate, with a better one taken with the document out of the frame. I had taken it out of the frame a couple of weeks ago to send a photo to a fellow who contacted me regarding a Memorial Cross he has. Once out of the frame I decided to do some conservation work such as replacing the backing with acid-free cardboard and applying a dust cover to the back.

Since I am not prepared to write a history of the Canadian Memorial Cross at this time I will simply post a photo of the document, now it is out of the frame, and add photos of the crosses from the collection and the history another time. If any of the members would like to start this off please feel free to do so.

Regards

Brian

An excellent example, Mervyn.

I think this was the most elegant sword ever produced.

Thanks for posting it.

Regards

Brian

Nice specimen Mike, thanks for posting it.

I always like to see older posts such as this one (started Jan. 2006) brought back to life.

So often interesting posts get rotated down the list and are as much as lost under the volume of posts received.

Regards

Brian

Hello Mervyn,

This is indeed an interesting and no doubt an extremely rare document. It brings to light that there was a movement toward independence within India during the war and, of course, well before that era. It's nice for us in the West to think that everyone was "on board" with the Empire against the Axis alliance but this is simply not the truth, not 100% at least. There were factions even here in Canada that did not support joining in the struggle against Germany, Italy and Japan. Many of the Indian soldiers who joined with Japan suffered the fate of traitors at the end of hostilities and, to me at least, it is a waste. I say this as I do not believe that the Japanese would have treated the Indian nation any differently than any other non-Japanese race as that was not in keepng with their policies of the day. The same is true, I believe, of Nazi Germany. Had they defeated the Eastern peoples (including Russia) they would not have treated them as welcomed additions to the German "empire". So, again in my opinion, the efforts to bring about an independent India through alliance with japan was doomed to fail regardless ot the out come of the war.

Thanks for posting these important specimens, not to mention giving me an opportunity to climb onto my soap box to deliver an historialy based rant.

Regards

Brian

Hello Erich,

Now you are making me think this morning.

The markings are Hindi and are probably accountability, or serial numbers.

I know that the first three are 164 and I "think" the last symbol stands for the same as "th" in English. If my memory serves me correctly on this then the markings would say 164th. I was hesitant to translate the symbol as "th" as I could be wrong, if however, if this is correct then it would make one think the number could be the regimental number.

I hope someone with a better grasp of Hindi will add their comments.

Very nice sword.

Regards

Brian

Hi Larry,

Congratulations on yet another great find.

Regards

Brian

Hi Chris,

A few years ago I obtained my pyrotechniques license so this is especially interesting to me.

I like making things go "Boom" but unlike the fellows in the Engineer Corps I can produce a great colour show as well...still... there's the "Boom".

A very nice find indeed.

Regards

Brian

I know there are several members who would be very interested in following the progress, thank you for offering to do this.

Good luck on your project.

Regards

Brian

Small update for those of you interested. Ed liked the group but confirmed the possibility of researching this man as near impossible.

Brian, the recipient was a member of the Military Police.

Regards,

Des

Military Police seemed logical but as soon as you try to apply logic to Pakistani medals all kinds of things can go wrong. I knew Ed would have the correct answer.

So, we know this fellow was in the Military Police in 1947 and I would bet he served with them throughout the war...oops, there I go applying logic.

Regards

Brian

Still a problem trying to post on this site, I type it out, hit "Post' get the flashing green light then nothing happens. No typo, Brian, I would put this pistol at 1790 or thereabouts.The first percussion caps came out in England in 1807 and most all flintlocks were converted to percussion over the next few years. The last flintlocks in N. America were produced for the US Army in 1830 and some 2,000 were still in use 30 yrs later during the Civil War. Usually you can see old screw holes sometimes filled in on the right hand side, but don't take it apart if you don't have the correct tools and experience, they can be tricky.

Thanks once again Dave. The holes you noted are quite noticable once I took a closer look. I am liking this pistol more and more. Perhaps a "died in the wool" firearms collector might find a conversion less desirable, I don't know for sure, however I really like the fact that this had two lives. One as a flintlock and a second as a percussion cap firearm.

Regards

Brian

Hello DAve,

I just noticed that you may have made a typo on the date as percussion caps were not introduced untli around 1840.

I think you meant to type "mid to late 1800s".

Regards

Brian

Thanks again for your assistance Dave.

I'll let you know what I find out at the gun show, though I think they will only verify what you have already said.

Regards

Brian

I took the barrel off and all that was stamped under it was the number 8 preceeded or followed by a dot, depending upon which way you look at it. It is not a "period" as it is centered to the "8".

Looks like the search for the identification is still ongoing. I'm attending a local gun show this coming Sunday and perhaps one of the collector/dealers in attendance will shed some light on the mystery.

Regards

Brian

Towards the front of the stock there is a pin that holds in the barrel. Tap that out from the right and remove it from the left. The barrel will come out and there should be a makers name on the bottom of it.

Thanks Dave,

I knew I should not check the forum from work this morning, now I have all day to wait to check this out.

I'll post what I find out later today.

Thanks again.

Regards

Brian

This is a disgrace and if they get a move on there is still time to set it right before the unveiling.

Let us hope they do so.

Regards

Brian

I have thirty different professions, regiments and titles on the Independence Medals in my collect but CPMP is a new one on me. I'm sure someone at Sagongsa will be able to help.

Regards

Brian

I like it myself, however I have been at odds with Ed more times than we have agreed.....come to think of it I do't think we have ever agreed.

If you go to Sagongs be prepared to be savaged.........

The book Brian talks about is this one:

http://www.gumtree.c...sbati/103923995

It can be found on Ebay for very little money and is at this point in time probably the best book available, though not totaly complete.

later

Larry

True, but you are a hard guy to get along with Larry.

Before the new members start to duck it should be noted that Larry and I get along quite well, the only irritating thing about him is that he almost always beats me to the really good groups. I do consider Ed a good friend, however, he has a very short fuse and I too have felt his wrath over the years. Still there is a lot to be learned over at Sagongs.

Good luck in your research Des.

Next time we are at Tim's I'll buy the coffee Larry.

Regards

Brian

Hello Fellows,

I have not been in contact with Ed for a while but when we last communicated he informed me that he was beginning work on a book covering Pakistan medals and decorations. His work on the Medals and Decorations of Independent India took years to complete and considering his need to be accurate I expect it will not be published for and equally long time.

Hello Des,

Welcome to the GMIC

Your group has everything collectors of Pakistani groups like to see and in the condition that is most desirable. There can be no doubt that this is an original group simply from the ribbons alone. Along with the 1939-45 Star and Medal we can see he served in Burma, has the India war Service Medal and then, of course, the Pakistan Independence Medal. It shows an important era of history not only for India and pakistan but for the world itself. As you can tell these are my favourite type of groups.

Well done.

As has been said, research is nearly impossible and probably will be for loger than I like to think about. What is impressed on the edge of the Independence meal?

Regards

Brian

The consensus on Nihonta seems to indicate possibly Shinto period 1600 to 1700 for the blade which of course would need verification

Interesting as I always thought the Shinto period was 1597 - 1780, though I would have put it in the Early Edo Perion of c.1650. I would think that 1650, seeing that Nihonta puts the Shinto Period as 1600 - 1700, would be a safe quess. Without a signiture the exact age is hard to determine. To me this time frame was the Golden Period of sword making and you should be quite happy to have a blade from that time and being fairly safe in thinking that it is of the Shimanzo clan. Some research in the Shimanzo clad may be interesting, but where to start I cannot say.

Regards

Brian

Congratulations Kelly and well done on the research as well.

As to the sword being an 1875 pattern, the more accurate description would be that the hilt is that pattern but the blade would be pre-1866 which should be even better news.

Please keep us posted on your progress with the blade.

Regards

Brian

Hello John,

Before I saw your photographic research results I too would have said it was a water bottle and Moorish in design. I'm used to seeing more modern powder flasks with a powder measure either as a separate piece or as a double closer that allows only so much powder to enter the end of the flask tube then this measure is allowed out and into the barrel. Older ones didn't have this measure and relied on the gunner to know the correct amount to be deposited into the barrel.

Nice find and really good research work.

Regards

Brian

Hi Brian, I have uploaded some photos of the tang, of note is a plugged hole (brass it appears) right behind the Mekugi hole, possibly to take an existing blade to fit into this hilt? The hamon is pretty obscure right now, I will take a harder look.

Really appreciate your time!!

http://smg.photobuck...134/WildBillGT/

Hi Kelly,

You are correct, the hole that was plugged had been there to accept the pre 1866 sword. It is common to also see "extra" holes for the same reason. I would suggest that you might use a light oil on the blade and then buff it by hand with a soft cloth to see if you can bring up the hamon enough to tell if this is an original wakizashi or a shortened katana. I don't think it as been mentioned that this blade would have been part of a set "back in the day" along with a katana. The katana would have been used for serious fighting and the wakizashi for a bit more utilitarian purposes. Though in tight places where the length of the katana would not allow its use the wakizashi would be put to the task. I have read that when serving in a castle, especially while on night guard duty within the castle itself that it was only the wakizashi that was allowed to be worn. Remember that this is a generalization as throughout the long history of pre-1866 Japan trends changed as time went on. However during the Edo period I beileve that only the wakizashi was worn within the castle while on night guard duty. Only the samuri were allowed to wear the two swords so there are probably many more katanas than wakizashis to have survived into modern times.

Regards

Brian

Hello Kelly,

It makes me very happy to hear that anyone values an artifact more for its historic rather than monitary value. With the resent flood of unrealistic T.V. programs like Pawn Stars, who are using questionable "experts" and the long running Antiques Road Show it seems that most people want the dollars and cents of an artifact and the Devil take the historic value. Ok, you didn't need to hear my rant but it was free, though I suppose you get what you pay for in that respect.

The symbol on the back strap has me wondering as well. I will go through my reference material later today and see what I can come up with. I seem to remember seeing this in one of the books I have but that could just be wishful thinking. Let me check and I'll get back to you on that matter.

The blade, I agree, looks like someone was wacking away at brush, though even corn stocks will leave those marks. I would say that considering the age of the blade and the condition that it is a good candidate for retoration by an expert. These can be very valuable blades. Is the "tang" signed? The handle will come off easily to check. Warning, DO NOT remove any rust that may be found on the tang whether it is signed or not. Removal of the rust devaluates the blade both in dollars and cents as well as being an historic artifact. Die-hard collectors would no longer want the blade if you were to remove the rust, unless it was a very rare or desirable sword smith's name. Unsigned blades are not uncommon but that is not a completely bad thing either.

Check to see if you can make out the Hamon (temper line) and see if it follows the edge all the way around to the very tip. Many of these shorter blades were made from damaged longer swords. If it has been shortened then the temper line will follow the edge until it gets to the tip and then keep going straight right out through the curve of the tip rather than following the edge right up to the back of the blade. Again this is not the end of the road for the blade as many were made from shortened blades and became treasured family blades handed down from generation to generations. The handle tells us it was carried during the Russo-Japanese War period. As far as modern Japan (post 1866) the Russo-Japanese War period is, in my opinion, the most interesting of the 20th century Japanese history.

I hope to hear more from you in the near future. Do keep the members informed as to what you plan to do with the sword and the finished restoration, if you decide to go in that direction.

Regards

Brian