Brian Wolfe

Brian,

Your R.E. Sgt was a member of the Territorial Force hence the two numbers and his number's 162 & 477144 indicates he served with the Cheshire Field Coy, Welsh Divisional Engineers, which later became 1st Field Coy(Cheshire). In 1917 all members of the Territorial Force were renumbered and their old four figure numbers discarded and new six figure ones issued. In the case of the R.E.(T.F.) under Army Council Instruction 2243 and the 1st Field Coy(Cheshire) were allotted a number range 446001 - 448000.

Transfers during the Great War were common place hence more than one unit on many Medal Index Cards. Regimental numbering is dealt with in detail in Queens(Victoria)Regulations, Kings Regulations, Militia Regulations, Special Reserve Regulations, Volunteer Force Regulations, Territorial Force Regulations, Army Council Instructions and Army Orders, but many people find it a daunting subject to tackle although the guide lines given by these regulations are easy enough to follow.

Those collectors who find numbering hard to grasp are usually ex-Army lads, whose number followed them throughout there careers and they find it difficult to understand that this didn't happen in the Army of 1881 through to 1920. Your number changed whenever you moved unit. In 1920 a new regimental block numbering system was introduced and under this system your number moved with you during transfer. This numbering system remained in place until the 1960's when the current general numbering was introduced.

Also don't be fooled into thinking the word "Corps", is used soley by none fighting units. You'll find in KR's reference to a "Corps" relating to infantry units i.e. the Northumberland Fusiliers would be regarded as an Infantry Corps.

Graham.

Many thanks Graham.

You and the other members have added greatly to my limited knowledge.

Cheers

Brian

Here is the post WW II display.

I hope you can read the write up, the photo came out a bit dark.

Brian

Hello Everyone,

My wife's uncle, who was killed just after the Normandy landing, belonged to the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders (SD&G). Their HQ is in Cornwall, Ontario, Canada.

Their nic name is Sand, Dirt and Gravel.

I've included a photo of his actual hat badge (I have added the tartan).

I've also included a set of post WW II badges (Queen's crown) with their battle honours listed in the framed display.

Cheers

Brian

Hello Everyone,

I should have asked this question earlier but forgot. When researching my WW I British medals I have noticed that some soldiers have two entries under the heading "Corps" on the Medal Card.

In one case the soldier is listed as Army Cycle Corps 10016 Private and under this is Lancashire Fusiliers 36162 Corporal. The medal was issued to number 10016. Was this fellow transfered from the Lancashire Fusiliers as a Corporal to the ACC as a Private?

My other example is a Serjeant in the Royal Engineers number 162 with the entry below this as number 477144 still as Serjeant in the RE. The discharge document I have in my collection is to number 477144 which would have been his number when he was discharged.

I hope I have not made this question more confusing with my examples. In the first example the first (or top entry) is the number on the medal. However in the second example this is reversed with the second (or bottom entry) being the number on the document.

I'm new new at this research game and any help you can give me would be greatly welcomed.

Cheers

Brian

Brian, there are probably hundreds of medal prefix letters and numbers which usually denote a trade, old army, new army etc. I have just started a thread on a soldier with a PS prefix meaning Public Schools battalion.

I have this info in H Williamson's book:

SE is section veterinary Corps

L for RA is local enlistment

S for the Camerons is wartime enlistment for Scottish regiments

Tony

Many thanks Tony,

So much to learn and so little time.

Cheers

Brian

Hello Everyone,

Some of my British WW I medals have a regimental number that starts with a letter prefix. For example:

a medal to an Army Veterinary Corps member is S.E. 30469

to a member of the Royal Field Artillery is L/7593

and to a Cameron Highlander S/30613

Could someone shed some light as to the meaning of these letters?

Many thanks.

Brian

Hi Ed,

Very nice, it makes my heart beat a little faster.

I guess I'll just keep buying those lottery tickets!

Cheers

Brian

Hi Laurence,

I hate to see a fellow Canadian stuck with such an item so I'll take it off your hands for $10.00.

Seriously, nice decoration at a great price.

Cheers

Brian

P.S. I'm still looking for a Tamgha-i-Diffa with the Siachen Glacier clasp. Have you found one yet?

I'm starting to think there are only tailor's copies on the market!

A very nice grouping, especially with the first pattern R.C.E.M.E badges.

Good news! The service pin rolls do exist, and a member of the CEF Research Group was able to research two WWII pins as a test Class A

The bad news - they're all handwritten entries with no finding guide.

Hi Michael,

That is good news. Too bad about there being no finding guide. Where do these records reside? Perhaps I'll vacation in the Archives this year if that is where they are kept.

Cheers

Brian

Hello Everyone,

If anyone has noticed several of my posts involve odd and sometimes downright ugly specimens. I'm a sucker for stray dogs, as far as medals are concerned. At times I feel like the Dr. Frankinstien of collecting. Here is another stray that was neary lost for all time to the land fill.

Here is a group of medals with hat badge, collar badges and General Service pin that was given to me by my wife's aunt a number of years ago. My wife's uncle, now passed away, was helping an elderly couple to clean out their basement and in one of the boxes heading to the land fill (dust bin or garbage dump, depending on where you live) was this group. In my area we call it the "land fill", probably becuase it sounds like we are doing nature a favor rather than having a garbage dump. The elderly couple, Mr. & Mrs. Art Hickling, had no children. Art never served in the armed forces neither did Mrs. Hickling (I can't recall her first name). They had moved to Perth Ontario later in life and none of the locals knew much about their past or family and I guess no one bothered to ask. Therefore, I have no leads as to family members in other parts of Ontario. When my wife's uncle brought the medals to their attention they said they knew they were in the box and he could have them or throw them out.

After my wife's uncle passed away her aunt gave them to me for safe keeping knowing I would look after them. My wife's uncle's medals are in the Royal Canadian Legion museum in Perth, Ontario. If you are in Perth try to take time to see their museum it really is quite impressive. Don't wait too long as the membership is getting on in years and the interest in keeping the museum open is getting less each year. Sad.

All I know about this group is what anyone can tell just from looking at them. The recipient was Canadian, a volunteer, served in the Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Corps and served in France and/or Germany. The medals are swing mounted which would make me think they were actually worn well after 1945. The General Service pin is serial numbered but from what I can find out the list of names and numbers has been lost by the government, if one ever existed. I have, however, a list of numbers and the dates associated with them. The pin is numbered 725348 and was made sometime detween Summer 1945 and Sept 6/45.

From the medals NOT present I would guess he served less than six months before the end of the war. There is no Defence Medal or 1939-45 Star both requiring more than six months service.

That's all I have on this group. I like to think it represents the Uknown Soldier of my collection.

Cheers

Brian

The reverses:

Hi Leigh,

Very nice collection. Mine was going to be sold but after some thought I removed the incorrect ribbon and now it is part of my India collection.

Thanks to all for their input.

Cheers

Brian

Hi Brian

Thanks for sharing . Nice medal Here are the reversesof mine. The one on the bottom is Meiji if I recall and Paul stated that it should not be mounted on the ribbon.

Hope this helps a bit.

Thank you to both Paul and Laurence for adding to my knowledge.

So..... you're saying that my medal is rare?

Seriously, I have only seen one of these medals which is the one I purchased so I am completely in the dark as to why there was a ring on the back of mine. I don't think it was ever issued. It will reside in my small Red Cross collection until I run onto more medals from Japan which is what happened to my WW I German Red Cross medal.

Again thanks for your assistance.

Cheers

Brian

The ring does not appear to be original. These female versions on the bow ribbons are usually found with a safety pin type assembly on the reverse. I suspect the pin broke off and has been replaced. Still a nice example of this medal.

Hi Paul,

After I posted this medal I showed it to my wife who is pretty good at sewing. Without hesitation she said the ring was put there to maintain the shape of the ribbon. Otherwise it would just flatten out quite quickly in wear. She also suggested that perhaps this particular "supplier" of the ribbons intended them to be sewen onto a dress uniform. When we reattached the loose side of the ring it raised it to a position that would indeed be easier to sew onto a uniform. I've tried to show this in the photo. I must agree with my wife's logic that the ring would only be there to serve these purposes. Is there a chance that some of these medals were intended to be sewen onto a uniform and/or when the ring gave way the recipient would simply reattach it with a safety pin, which would be closer at hand than another ring? Any thoughts on this hypothesis?

Cheers

Brian

Hello Everyone,

Here is rhe reverse showing the suspension (?) ring. It has come free on one side bit I don't think I will attempt to reattach it.

Cheers

Brian

Hi Laurence and everyone,

This Japanese Red Cross medal just became part of my collection so I though I'd take advantage of your offer to add mine to your thread.

I've been busy with "trades" once again and the fellow I got this from likes to glue the ribbons to a backing. The glue can be seen in the photo of the reverse. There is a ring sewn onto the reverse, is this an original attachment device? The medal and ribbon are in pretty good condition. I am sure it is Showa.

A lot has been said about these on this thread so I won't bother as I have nothing to add.

I hope you like my new addition. It is my first Jananese but not my first Red Cross Medal.

Cheers

Brian

Hi Davey,

Welcome to the forum.

All I can say about your posted item is WOW!

Cheers

Brian

Hi Alex,

I thought so too, that's why I bought them. I have a fair number of BWM and Victory medals in my collection and after a while so many of the same medals (same except for the naming) it can strat to look a little repetitious. To the average person the inclusion of this pair to the collection make the viewing a bit more interesting and to the fellow collector it adds a bit of shock value.

I also agree that it adds an interesting bit of additional history to my collection. Thanks to this amazing forum and its members I have gain information on the original recipient of this pair and a possible lead regarding the soldier who had them altered. I wish I had more free time to research my collection properly but that time will come when I retire.

Cheers

Brian

Hi Chris,

I purchased one of these a few years back for around $75.00 and traded it off last year for a value of $300.00 Canadian. I'm sure they are worth all of that plus.

I was told that these were issued to pioneer regiments and used in either Austria or Brazil (probably both). An old catalog of the 1960s from a large arms dealer in Florida lists this as Austrian.

This is the first one I've seen worn in a photo. Nice photo.

Cheers

Brian

This is a part of history that I love, a lot of people didn?t care for there medals at all and this man made his own, wonderful.

I love when people change there groups so a sport medal ore something comes before his military medal, maybe becous he felt more like a sports man then a former military man.

And if your father felt he was entitled to another star I don?t think you should corect him, then you would fake his medal.

To honour his memory you should keep them as they were.

Sorry for my english, but I hope you understand me.

Hello Krigstrom,

I understand you completely and there is nothing wrong with your English. I also agree with what you are saying. My father has good reason for the addition of the medal. When the day comes that I inherit I will probably leave it as he intended. Out of respect rather than accurace to history.

Cheers

Brian

I'm appauled at what has been done to these medals!!! What the H**L was he thinking?

Doc

Hello Doc,

A former military friend of mine is fond of saying, "Only a sniper knows what goes through a man's mind".

I worry about that boy at times!

My own father felt he was entitled to an extra campaign star so he added it to his group. When the day comes that I inherit his medals I will be faced with the decision as to whether I should have one removed or leave his group of 5 as is. For the sake of future generations I think I should correct his decision so that no one can ask "What the H**L was he thinking?".

I am a sucker for odd and courious items so I could not resist this mistreated pair.

Cheers

Brian

Here's the gent who owned the originals: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=6

I wonder if he was entitled to a 1903 Delhi Durbar and IGS 1908, bar NWF 1908? (Or thought he was entitled.)

Could "Sy han" be "Durbar" by any chance - the engraving is very crude?

Hello Michael,

Thanks very much for the research. I have not had the time to research many of my more "legitimate" medals. Time for that when I retire (in the not too far future).

Cheers

Brian

Now for the reverse.

The victory medal has had the original reverse filed off and the the letters SY??HAN cut into the surface and the new owner's name,C. CARD cut below. It looks like there was an attempt to put something in the centre of the medal but I can not make it out. Any ideas as to what the place name SY??HAN would be? It could be a mis-spelling of the place name. The edge is named probably in an attempt to make this look as original as possible. It says, C.CARD M.T. (motor transport?).

The BWM has the wording INDIA NW FRONTIER replacing the usual reverse and the name C.CARD in the centre. On the edge is carved the name C.CARD as well but without "M.T.".

As you can see my collection now has the "ugly" part of the "good, the bad and the ugly".

Cheers

Brian

Hello All,

I seem to have purchased my share of renamed medals in the past but here is a pair that I just couple not resist purposely adding to my collection. I hope you have not eaten anything lately or you might not be able to keep your lunch down after you see this pair.

They started out life as a BWM and Victory Medal pair. There was enough original naming on these to make out that they were named to 7593 SJT. J.W. ________ R.A. What a shame that theses were altered!

The Victory medal has had the Winged Victory removed and a crude bust of Kind Edward VII applied, probably using solder and sweated onto the original medal. There are traces of silver-like material around the bust which makes me think it is solder. The wording that has been applied reads INDIAN EMPIRE EDWARD VII, I'll show the reverse in the next photo.

The BWM has been left unaltered on the obverst but you can see the welts caused by the removal of the reverse. The hanger has been removed and a wire hanger made to replace the original.

The ribbons are the 1911 Coronation and the India General Service 1908-35.

It would seem that this fellow felt he should have been awarded medals for his service and went out and purchased another soldier's and had them "customized". I don't know where he would have worn these as they would quickly be seen as frauds.

The reverse next.

Cheers

Brian

Hello Christophe,

This is a sobering reminder of those who gave their all so that we can live in peace.

Thanks for posting it.

Brian

David Harris' fine "A Guide to Military Temperance Medals" (the OMRS publication alluded to above) shows this as RATA.6 (p. 53), the Royal Army Temperance Association medal for 6 years of temperance (oooooffff), awarded for British troops in India. The hallmark is the lion, indicating manufacture in India. The correct ribbon is 38 mm, white edges with a 18-mm red center stripe.

Thanks Ed,

It is interesting that the lion hallmark was used to indicate manufacture in India. I have purchased other silver items in the past (non-military) and the lion hallmark was used in conjunction with other marks. The lion in those cases indicated the item was made of sterling silver and the marks, following the lion, indicated date and place of manufacture as well as the company that manufactured the piece.

Once again the ribbon is not a match! This is what happens when you venture into unfamiliar territory without doing your homework.

Thanks again for your guidance.

Cheers

Brian