Stuart Bates

The Dragoon Guards and Dragoons had a spike as an alternative to the plume holder to the top of their helmet. The cross-piece that held the spike or plume holder had no roses to each of the 4 arms so maybe this is the source of the "unusual" cross-piece. The spike was rarely worn on the helmet but was "fitted to the officers' FSH of the 13th Hussars during the mid 1870s. The spike was also fitted to a similar pattern helmet worn by the rank and file of the 4th Dragoon Guards whilst in India c. 1895/96." David JJ Rowe Head Dress of the British Heavy Cavalry p62. The spike is however from the normal infantry HSH or FSH as the cavalry one had a small rounded ball below the spike. Stuart

Hi Kev, on further inspection of the photos I think I may be wrong in saying that it has 6 seams, can you determine from the original photos exactly how many seams there are? The HSH had only 4, are you sure the colour is khaki and not grey? American cork helmets, some manufactured in Britain, had only 4 seams. Off we go again. Stuart

Hi Kevin, no I am going to re-photgraph all of my collection using a far superior camera to the original and better techniques for taking and editing the results. The helmet plate of your helmet is rare, to say the least, and must be worth a considerable amount as it's very hard to believe that copies of such an obscure badge would reap any worthwhile benefit to fakers (but maybe obscurity is why they would do it)! And yes, I have only been a member of GMIC for a month but have learnt so much, it makes such a difference to have such input from forum members rather trying to solve every puzzle by oneself. Stuart

I have to say that obtaining research documents in the Colonies is difficult to put it mildly. Therefore, I want to give credit to David Ford of https://youroldbooksandmaps.co.uk/cdshop/home.php for coming up with the idea of converting the rare hardcopy Army Lists to CDs which allowed myself and Peter to track down Sir C.L.D. Venables-Llewelyn. Stuart

A better photo of the Northumberland Fusiliers helmet. Stuart

Graham, you speak so well. Has your vocabulary improved since the beginning of this forum? Too many Aussie TV soaps? Stuart

Hi Kevin I have to agree with Terry that it is a "parts helmet" 1. It has 6 seams which means it is a Foreign Service Helmet not a Home Service Helmet 2. The leather edge binding supports this as does the Khaki colour 3. The back strap does, indeed, seem to be an add-on and a very bad one at that, as it does not line up with the centre top of the helmet and should terminate roughly an inch before the leather headband at the interior back of the helmet 4. The cross piece which holds the spike was not used on the Foreign Service Helmet rather on the HSH only and should have a rose at the end of each of the 4 arms (Colonial, irregulars &c may have had such a pattern as this but I have not seen one). 5. The FSH had a simple dome or an acanthus leaf design base to accommodate the spike. 6. The badge is, as Terry says, for the 1st Heretfordshire Rifle Volunteers and it's an interesting side note that it has no crown to the top (correct but unusual). 7. The chinchain and rosette attachments are for volunteers Stuart PS. Here is my Northumberland Fusiliers Volunteers Home Service helmet. The fittings are silver it's just a bad photo (I've got to redo all of my helmets)

I know I have said this before but I think we have gone as far as we can, and yes Graham, I am also of the opinion that the photograph shows a member of a Volunteer Artillery unit as there is simply no room for a numeral below the grenade and because of the variability of the headdress of Volunteer Artillery - some with silver/white bands, some with scarlet bands each with and without grenade badges (Litchfield and Westlake). It has been a pleasure to take part in this discussion. Over and out. Stuart

This quote was taken from Jerome's siteStuart

Graham, your Giles print is on the same site and is specified as being Royal Garrison Artillery with the OR's band being, of course, yellow as for the Royal Field Artillery? Stuart http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army.../rgaofficer.htm

I was wondering when the Good Conduct chevrons changed from the right cuff to the left cuff. Thanks, Graham, for supplying the answer. Stuart

Further to my earlier posting about chevrons as part of the cuff design 1868-1871: the Good Conduct chevrons were worn above the chevron that formed part of each cuff. Stuart

Graham, p93 of the Thin Red Line shows 3 1854 Artillery forage caps: an officer's; an NCO's and an OR's but the OR's has a red band! P68 1812-1815 also shows an Artillery OR's forage cap with a red band. I just throw that in to further muddy the waters. I notice the spiral nature of the swagger stick in Eduardo's photo and its similarity to the one in the photo quoted above. Any significance in this? Stuart

Well, Graham, I think that we have exhausted this topic, or at least it has exhausted me. From here on it's round in circles, so unless someone has an exceptional find I will bow out, but it has been an extremely interesting experience. Thanks to all who contributed. Stuart

Graham, wasn't sepia introduced in the early 1880s which takes it out of contention for the purposes of this discussion. I can't reconcile your statements about the colours with the fact that we can easily distinguish the cuffs and chevron as being a different colour to the jacket and the stripe to the trousers. As we know Volunteer Artillery had silver lace/silver for officers and white cloth/white metal for ORs according to Litchfield. However, p88 has a photograph of the Gloucestershire A.V. circa 1860 wearing a cap without any badge and with an indeterminate band colour, even though the author states that exceptions to the silver &c rule would be noted. P150 and 152 show the Shropshire and Staffordshire with a mixture of silver/white and an indeterminate colour. Stuart BTW: The Soldiers of the Queen is a terrific site

Graham, look at Barthorp p83 but especially the Rifle Brigade photograph on p89 where the men are wearing a combination of shell jackets and tunics but all with a cross belt. I am colour blind (like sepia) but the cuffs on the original photo show up as a lighter shade and I would have expected yellow or white to have done so. It did for the Good Conduct chevron. Stuart

Hello Graham, I have looked on the net for Kings Regulations, Militia Regulations and Regulations for the Volunteer Force and have only found the KRRs for 1837. I do have Bennett Cuthbertson's book on order. This is definitely off-topic but I wouldn't touch mainstream Aussie beer, my favourite beer is Fuller's London Pride, but my weakness is for cognac. Will PM. Stuart

Hi Eduardo, you might be right that he has served his purpose but I suspect Graham might not yet be finished. When I first saw your posting I thought no it's not my area but on a subsequent re-visit I thought why not? and got caught up in the chase. It has been a very rewarding experience and I have learned a good deal (thanks Graham). Well done for posting the photo. Stuart

Hi Graham, thanks for the information, I appear to be of your vintage and still learning. I was cogitating over a cognac late last night and realised that I had forgotten that the Dress Regs only covered officers but didn't know what the ORs badges were. My area has always been officers' headdress but I do have some ORs cavalry helmets. I use Barthorp's books (infantry and cavalry) as a primary source as well as Carman, Barnes and Stachan and less so Lawson. I also have the Thin Red Line but for some reason never refer to it, possibly because of it's height it isn't grouped with the bulk of my reference books. I have many, many other books on Yeomanry, helmets, medals &c but only 2 on badges. I also have 22 Army Lists and Dress Regs 1846, 1857, 1874, 1891, 1900, 1913 with 4 more on order. These days I seem to be spending more on reference material than on headdress. The Army Lists were vital in tracking down Sir C.L.D. Venables-Llewelyn of Peter Suciu fame. But where does this leave us with Eduardo's man? His cap does not appear to be deep enough to accommodate the numeral 5. Stuart

Eduardo, it's hard enough to buy books from them - no website, no email address and they won't give out their 'phone number. I have to go through a friend in the UK, he writes a letter then a cheque and I EFT the funds to him. When I get my latest shipment I will write to them and enquire about the photo collection. FYI: D P & G Military Publishing,PO Box 186, Doncaster, S.Yorks, UK DN4 OHN. Stuart

Eduardo, some really good photos in your collection. I know of a book publisher who has a collection of 25,000+ photos which I would love to peruse. If you can get hold of the magazine Military Trader November issue check out Peter Suciu's and my article on the British Foreign Service Helmet it has a terrific photo of 3 Gloucestershire soldiers which we obtained from the Gloucestershire Museum. I might as well add it here although we are going off topic. Your topic has elicited much interest and I wonder how much further we can go, but I thought that many postings ago. Stuart Photo courtesy Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum

Graham, forgot to ask where you got the information on the die stamped badge as the one in the photo doesn't look to be an embroidered one, but this flies in the face of the Dress Regs. Stuart

Hi Graham, you are mostly correct in your statements on forage cap badges, my assumption regarding the Glengarry badges was wrong. The 1846 Dress Regs specify the 5th as having a forage cap with a red band and an embroidered grenade containing St George and the Dragon to the ball. The 1857 Dress Regs specify the 5th as having a forage cap with a black band and the embroidered grenade containing St George and the Dragon to the ball with the number of the regiment embroidered in gold beneath the grenade and not in brass. The 1874 Dress Regs have the 5th with a black band and embroidered grenade as above but still with the regimental number embroidered underneath. Other fusilier regiments conformed to the 5th as regards the regimental number. Shell jackets of an authorised pattern were approved in 1829 and from 1848 they were ordered for undress use. In 1870 the frock, a skirted undress garment, replaced the shell jacket for both home and foreign service. Volunteer Artillery, as discussed in another topic, had silver lace, Regulars had gold and Militia silver changing to gold according to the 1891 Dress Regs. Stuart BTW: Where did you get the information on the nine pointed grenade 1840-1855, Graham?

According to Kipling & King, Glengarry Badges 1871-1881 the 5th and 104th badges (#425) and #581) are identical with the 104 on the ball also being in cut-out form. Pity as the 5 in cut-out or voided form may have stood out in the photo. Carman has two versions for the 5th, the first 2.9" high and the second 3.1" high 'having the flames bunched into a more upright shape'. The 104th looks identical to the first version of the 5th but is 2.75" high. The 1st Batttalion/5th Regiment was in England 1860-1866 and again in 1880. The 2nd Battalion/5th Regiment was in England 1857, 1867, 1875 and Ireland in 1871. The 104th was in England in 1871-1877 and Ireland in 1877-1880. Stuart

Some Artillery and Engineer Volunteer units did indeed wear grenade badges but the spread of the flames is much narrower than that in Eduardo's photograph. I would go one further, Jerome, and say that we won't crack this one without knowing the device on the ball of the grenade. Pity there is no ID to the back of the photo. Stuart