bigjarofwasps

On 02/10/2022 at 18:25, Dave Wilkinson said:

I think there will be a restricted issue of the Coronation medal along the lines of the 1953 Coronation medal and the 1977 Jubilee medal.

 

The King has told those involved in organising the Coronation that he expects it to be much reduced in comparison with his Mother's, having regard to the serious economic difficulties facing many people.

 

Dave. 

Will be interesting to see if the Coronation Medal effigy is uncrowned.

Something I’ve been pondering is will the new LSGC effigy, for C111R be crowned or uncrowned?
 

I’ve been informed that as of the 8th September the Royal Mint changed from E11R to C111R.

The first E11R LSGC’s were issued crowned, with no transitional period despite the fact the Queen wasn’t coronated until 15 months later?
 

Could we potentially see two versions of the C111R LSGC, or will they just remain uncrowned now like the RAF and RN LSGC’s? Or will they go straight for crowned like the first E11R?

Another point that I’ve been pondering will there be a subsequent additional effigy on these medals, once C111R has been formally crowned? 
 

Could it be that there may well in fact be C111R LSGC’s out there already, to officers who qualified for it on the 9th September, for instance? 

37 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

The fact that you've been told by the HR Dept. that the medals are produced on demand casts a question mark over the info. given to you by "Liverpool Medals", that they are produced in bulk by the RM and then sent to another contractor for engraving.

 

It was always my understanding that they were ordered and produced by the mint on an as required basis. That was what I was told when I got mine in the 1990's. "The Secretary of State has approved the award of the medal which is being produced by the Royal Mint. When it arrives, I will arrange a formal presentation". My award was a "single" one for the force (Port of Dover Police). There were only one or two eligible there each year. 

 

Dave.

The “as and when” required theory, certainly seems to be the case!

Interesting that so few were issued to the Port of Dover police. The intakes in NWP vary in size, mine must have been 20+ perhaps, back in October 2002, interestingly the intake before us was in August (not sure how many were in that intake), but they will have all qualified for the E11R version. My intake with be the first NWP one to have the C111R version, wonder if there’s a date certificate that accompanies it? 

On 29/09/2022 at 19:13, Dave Wilkinson said:

Interesting. Do Welsh forces not request their police medals via the Welsh Government or does the devolved assembly not have any responsibility for policing.

 

South Wales would soon get their act together if someone there returned their medal and demanded that it be re-issued with Welsh engraving. I'm surprised that the S. Wales Fed. reps have not bottomed that one.

 

Dave.   

Contacted my HR department, they were unable to confirm when NWP first began issuing medals in Welsh, however, they were able to confirm that there does tend to be a 50/50 mixed between English and Welsh medals issued. 

2 hours ago, dpk said:

The surprising fact seems to be that there are either no remaining stocks of the LSGC with the Queen's effigy, or a decision has been made to not use those remaining medals and to wait for the new version to be produced. It seems that even though virtually all of your service was under the reign of Queen Elizabeth II, your medal will not reflect that.

 

I personally would want my medal to portray the Monarch I served under, rather then her heir, excellent King though he will surely be. I am sure others will disagree, and even worse some may see the brand new King's medal as a chance to make a good sale while they are still a novelty...

The way it was explained to me was that there, was to be a clear cut off date. All those who qualified pre 8th September would be given an E11R, then post 8th would get C111R. I also understand that there our no physical stocks, they are produced on demand.

Not sure how I feel about it really, I joined the army in 1996, leaving and joining the police in 2002, so all but 1 month or so of my service was for the Queen. But having a King’s LSGC will be a novelty, especially so as it will be engraved in Welsh. I certainly won’t be among the ones who sell them off, of that I can guarantee you!!!

1 hour ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

Gordon,

 

What a shame! I don't suppose there is very much you can do about it. The only consolation is that you will fall into an exceptional group of individuals who are the first to receive a LS medal with the King's head. At least you won't need to search for an example for your collection. From what you've said it seems that you were only able to achieve your 20 years qualifying service by the skin of your teeth. Thank goodness for that!

 

Dave.   

Yes, as I say not sure how I feel about that. Will certainly post photographs when it arrives. I could have retired back in June but decided to stay on till October in order to qualify, wanted to have something metallic to show for 20 years service. 

Thought this might be of interest? 

I qualify for my LSGC on the 14th October and retire on the 31st October.

On the 31st August my HR department very kindly agreed to pre order my LSGC prior to my qualification date, so that I could be presented with my medal in my last week. 

A few days later, as everyone knows the Queen sadly passed away.

Today, I was asked to contact my HR department, upon doing so I was informed, that they were very sorry. But they had been advised that their request re my medal, had been declined. The reason being that the Royal Mint were currently processing all personal who had qualified for their LSGC’s prior to the Queens death. 

That all recipients after that date, would be awarded the new King’s effigy medal, and that as such my medal, fell into this category and as such would now not be ready by my final week. But would be forwarded onto me in 6 weeks.

Would be interested to hear, if anyone else has been told this?

43 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

Well, I wish them the best of luck in their efforts. If they believe that one force in particular, the City of London Police, will bow to their attempts, then they are seriously deluded. No, I don't think so............

 

Dave. 

I agree Dave.
 

Good luck having a standard English version in Wales….

On 12/04/2022 at 07:16, Danny980 said:

I'm a serving Metropolitan Police officer.
They fell behind due to COVID. The Royal Mint were very slow in producing. 
I was presented with my medal recently, a year late. 
The MPS now hold ceremonies about every three months and must have nearly caught up. 
The chap who runs it now is very good. I identified one of my colleagues who had still not received his medal, several years later. 
He wasn't particularly concerned but I was. 
This was immediately rectified. 
Officers still get the choice of attending a ceremony in central London or having the medal posted to their Borough Commander. 
As an ex-Guardsman I am fortunate to have both the army and police LSGC medals. 
With regards to the Platinum Jubilee medal.

The Metropolitan Police are not issuing until May. 
Sad to see so many up for sale online already from other forces. 

Have you had all your medals mounted yet Danny?
 

Would very much like to see a photograph if you have! 

23 minutes ago, I_♥_Police said:

I really do hope so. I think theres a good chance of it, however who am I to say. Too soon I would have thought at the moment. For the jubilee, they authorised the wearing of ribbons before the jubilee medals were given out, but theres no mention of anything like that yet and it hasnt even been announced.

To be honest, I did briefly contemplate the possibility, that I could get 3 medals in one year. But whichever way the Coronation medal criteria may go, I’ll be long retired by the 3rd June 2023. 

8 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

I think there will be a restricted issue of the Coronation medal along the lines of the 1953 Coronation medal and the 1977 Jubilee medal.

 

The King has told those involved in organising the Coronation that he expects it to be much reduced in comparison with his Mother's, having regard to the serious economic difficulties facing many people.

 

Dave. 

I have to agree with you Dave.

Especially when you take into account the shocking amounts of Platinum Jubilee Medals that appeared and continue to appear on EBay and the like, some of which before even the official qualification date, shoe how little regard some have for them, perhaps they should only issue them to people who actually want one? 

21 minutes ago, Cerrig-Man said:

 

 

It certainly is puzzling why, the biggest force in Wales doesn't appear to issue out medals in Welsh? Would be curious to know if the other two forces (Dyfed Powys & Gwent), offer this option to their officers, or is it possible that it's only currently North Wales that do? I wonder if there's perhaps some sort of costing implication? Another possibility is that this was first implemented under the former Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom, who I believe was very vocal about the Welsh language, whereas other Chiefs at the time or since, perhaps aren't so. Which leads to another question are such medals in fact unique to North Wales? 

He was certainly very vocal, when expressing his opinions of topics he felt strongly about, and was no stranger to being in the media.
 

He joined NWP in 2001 and left in 2009. According to Wikipedia 

“Welsh language
 

Brunstrom has been praised for his learning and promotion of the Welsh language, in which he holds an A level. This has led to his being created an honorary Druid by the Gorsedd of Bards list at the 2006 National Eisteddfod,[21]and in April 2007 he made a speech to Welsh communities pressure group Cymuned in which he urged politicians to update the 1993 Welsh Language Act, saying he was doing his duty by raising it.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Brunstrom

So perhaps the option for Welsh came in as a result of his speech Cymuned in 2007, or perhaps certainly shortly afterwards? This would tally in with the change in 2008, to laser engraving? Certainly the only examples that I have seen are in the laser engraving  style.

7 hours ago, paul wood said:

Uslng English Charles rather than carolvs, his granfather and great-grandfather used the name georgivs, bit odd as the rest of the legend is Latin.

 

P

That is interesting.

Sure there must be a reason for this. Not well versed in Latin, Google translate has Elizabeth as Elizabeth. If that’s correct this would explain why she appeared to have a mixture of English and Latin to the untrained eye?

Thought this might be of interest?

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/30/king-charles-iii-50p-coin-unveiled-ahead-of-circulation-this-year

Another interesting reply on the BMF reads….

“I have had sight of a document that forces send to the home office stating that they do not have a full time member of staff dealing with medals, and they should order them at least 6 weeks before they are required. It also lists the official ranks that are acceptable.

With regard to the Welsh naming, South Wales Police (which is the biggest Welsh force) still haven’t put a mechanism in place to offer the option to officers. I have spoken to a number of colleagues who would have taken this option my self included.”

Liverpool Medals from the BMF, provided the following information, which I thought might be of interest?

The Royal Mint don't do naming anymore as far as i'm aware, and only manufacture some of the remaining medals.

This way they can send a batch of, for example, 500 Police LSGC's in boxes, then the contractor can name them individually when one is needed and post it to the recipient.

Current medals are mostly named using Laser Engraving, this style was officially adopted circa 2008, which coincides with your theory about them only appearing since 2006, which was approximately when they ceased doing the naming at the Mint.

I would hope that in the future more Welsh recipients can take advantage of this in the future, surely if you are Welsh or in a Welsh Police Force, you would have the right to request this.

The Silver Jubilee Medal is of very good quality, whereas the recent ones perhaps not so.

To that end, will they go down the route of fewer nice ones or more lesser quality ones, but for the same cost? 
 

On 22/09/2022 at 19:46, Dave Wilkinson said:

I think that perhaps the Royal Mint may be correct in what they are saying. It's quite feasible that it's been some years since the Mint held the contract for supplying Pol. Long Service Medals. Well before the introduction of the Welsh engraving? The RM now operate as a commercial concern and they compete as such for the award of contracts with other medal manufacturers. For example, they did not supply the last jubilee medals. I think a firm in Worcestershire did.  I suspect that the company that holds the contract will also do the engraving. You may well have more success with an approach to the Welsh forces direct, as you suggest.

 

If you approach the Government and start asking who they award contracts to, I suspect that they will refuse any FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality.   Best of luck!

 

Dave.

Thought this might be of interest?

A female colleague qualified for her LSGC in August last year, and was presented with it, at a ceremony a few days ago. Granted the photos of the naming isn’t ideal, but you will note that it’s in Royal Mail box and is engraved in Welsh. 
 

I wonder whether Police Medals are sent elsewhere for engraving or the previously provided information by the Royal Mint is incorrect? 

6 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

When you say that an "NCA" PLS&GC medal sold several years ago on eBay. Presumably it was described as such by the seller as opposed to having "NCA" marked on the medal. If the latter was the case then it was surely an error of some sort. I say that as force names are not marked (more is the pity) on such medals.

 

Dave. 

I believe this maybe the medal being referred to. It’s certainly the only of it’s kind, I’m aware of. Don’t recall how it was engraved, although I do remember it was. The NCA have all sorts of weird and wonderful ranks, sure this medal did include a rank, but as you say it didn’t include NCA after the recipients name. 

How interesting!!!

Curious that they even began production, before he was formally coronated. I guess that none considered in their wildest dreams that he would abdicate!

On 16/05/2022 at 19:06, I_♥_Police said:

I have today emailed the Prime Ministers Office as per the contact details on the official website asking when the Covid medal may be as the Prime Minister has announced a UK Commission on COVID Commemoration some time ago which was in several newspapers and online etc.

Did you ever receive any reply or acknowledgment one way or the other re this? The has certainly been no further announcements that I am aware of? 

On 22/09/2022 at 19:46, Dave Wilkinson said:

I think that perhaps the Royal Mint may be correct in what they are saying. It's quite feasible that it's been some years since the Mint held the contract for supplying Pol. Long Service Medals. Well before the introduction of the Welsh engraving? The RM now operate as a commercial concern and they compete as such for the award of contracts with other medal manufacturers. For example, they did not supply the last jubilee medals. I think a firm in Worcestershire did.  I suspect that the company that holds the contract will also do the engraving. You may well have more success with an approach to the Welsh forces direct, as you suggest.

 

If you approach the Government and start asking who they award contracts to, I suspect that they will refuse any FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality.   Best of luck!

 

Dave.

Whatever the actual numbers maybe? I fear we may never know.

One thing is for certain, there won’t be anymore, once the new effigy comes into effect! Given there apparent uniqueness I would assume that such examples will be a novelty to collectors? Will certainly be interesting to see if they demand any sort of premium?
 

Whenever the new effigy comes into being, they’ll also be be a whole new collecting sphere opened to collectors!

There will without a doubt be a Coronation Medal, however, given King Charles’s suggestion that the Coronation will be a vastly scaled down version, to that of his late Mothers. I would hazard that the distribution of medals will mirror that, and the medal will only be issued to the great and good, those that are physically present and perhaps a smattering of a few per regiment, constabulary, etc.

We wait with baited breath……

Another burning question, is when will we see a change in effigy to existing medals. When will the first C111R police LSGC’s start to be issued? 

On 19/09/2022 at 04:21, Graf said:

Interesting topic

Would appear, that King Charles has now opted for cypher with bearing a Kings crown?
 

Assume this means that there will now be a change in cap badges etc.

Although when this is likely to take place, I don’t know. An article I was reading suggested that we won’t see new bank notes until 2024 and coins would be minted as demand presented itself.

Of course the million pound question is, when we will see a change in effigy on medals! 
 

17 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

It's been suggested that the current QC will not be altered. We'll have to wait and see.

 

Dave.

Would appear, that King Charles has now opted for cypher with bearing a Kings crown?
 

Assume this means that there will now be a change in cap badges etc.

Although when this is likely to take place, I don’t know. An article I was reading suggested that we won’t see new bank notes until 2024 and coins would be minted as demand presented itself.

Of course the million pound question is, when we will see a change in effigy on medals! 
 

Had this rather curious reply from the Royal Mint, I can only assume that they are sent for engraving somewhere other than the Royal Mint? 
 

Many thanks for your information request. We have made internal enquiries and we can confirm that the Royal Mint has not produced any Welsh engraved Police Long Services Medals. Beyond that we do not hold any information falling within scope of your request. 

Best wishes

FOI Team