bigjarofwasps

11 hours ago, Paul R said:

I just hope the military does not go the cheap route and authorize the generic "Armed Forces Medal" to everyone.  This is a once in a century event that deserves its own special medal.

I agree!!! That would be a travesty!!!!

23 hours ago, OvBacon said:

As I indicated earlier, if you only give a tangible "thanks" to "frontline" workers it would be a complete slap in the face of all those who are risking their own health working in supermarkets, stores, trash removal etc etc or those who are going out of their way to assist others by doing the shopping for them etc. As someone who has served in the military and worked in an operating room for decades I knew that my jobs brought risks with them and thus needed way less gratitude for simply doing my job but a cashier in a supermarket or the cleaning staff of public buildings or health facilities do not get paid to put their lives and/or health on the line. These are the people that deserve a ton of credit and respect. I'm not saying that it isn't hard for health professionals right now as I have a lot of friends still working in OR's/ER's and ICU's and they are working their asses off... but they also know that they are getting tons of support and gratitude while a lot of people in stores still have to deal with aggression and disrespectful behavior. 

So you would have to make any type of medal available to all who are helping which seems like a unimaginable task. 

 

I’m inclined to agree with you, would be a nice gesture, but logistically a nightmare which would invariably leave some disappointed.

However having said that will be interesting to see whether organisations like the military for example that issue medals regularly, get awarded anything?

6 minutes ago, Paul R said:

Thank you Sir.  Maybe not the actual Medal of Freedom, but maybe create a subordinate level award for this purpose.

I’m sure they’ll be something in the pipeline.

Winston Churchill noted that: "A medal glitters but it also casts a shadow". He was of course referring to the envy that the award of military honour can arouse in those who miss out. His observation remains as true today as it did in the two world wars of the last century.

26 minutes ago, Paul R said:

The original paper (Seattle Times) link is broken and I am not having any luck searching for it.  I hope it was not pulled.  What did it say, basically?

When this pandemic is done, our health-care workers and first responders are the one’s most deserving of the Medal of Freedom. This medal is awarded by the president of the United States for meritorious contribution to national security or national interests of the United States of America and for significant public endeavor.

They have all gone above and beyond the call of duty to serve our country and its citizens. God bless all of them, and those in training.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2110888/coronavirus-support-grows-to-honour-frontline-nhs-workers-with-medal-after-crisis/amp/
 

On 31/03/2020 at 10:43, Nick said:

 

The Irish Times 4th April 2020. 

On 31/03/2020 at 10:43, Nick said:

In the UK there are 1.2million NHS workers in England alone you then need to factor in Scotland, NI and Wales., if you then consider any other persons such as NHS volunteers 700,000 of them or other public facing key workers involved in the fight  like police, military, Border Force, council employees,  Public Health bodies etc etc Then there are charity workers exposing themselves to help people in unfortunate circumstances. 

Thats the tip of the iceberg and a lot of people to consider. The criteria would have to be very strict to make such a medal feasible i.e. front line carers exposing themselves to high risk of infection. But then that would denigrate other essential persons who have placed themselves at high risk of infection for example cleaning staff, in hospitals. We need to see how this pans out in the long term, as it is just the beginning.

You may be right that like WW2 a series of medals needs to be considered dependent on role. Call me a cynic  but the one factor in the UK that will without a doubt influence any such decisions will be the role the military play in this. If they are deployed in significant numbers, then standby for medals to be issued. If not then other than recognising the acts of a few key individuals such as the usual bigwigs at the top,  or those that have sadly paid the ultimate sacrifice or placed themselves at immense risk is the more likely option.

Nick,  thought this might be of interest?

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/302613

9 hours ago, OvBacon said:

I think that the problem right now would be that so many people are part of the fight and/or are putting themselves at risk while performing their duties that it might be hard to bestow any such award in a fair manner. Think of all the supermarket/store workers, cleaning staff, mail/package and general delivery personnel and the list goes on and on with people that you might not realize are working and risking exposure. Then there are those who show leadership or forward thinking and took action way before they were told to do so by a government and have played a part in slowing the spread.   

As things have developed, I'm now inclined to agree with you, that a Covid 19 medal would far outweigh the amount of Ebola medals issued and as such it is becoming more and more unlikely, even if such an award had been considered, in the first place?

However having said that who many WW2 defence medals or indeed WW2 war medals and 1939-45 stars, were issued. Not everyone involved in the war effort qualified for any or indeed all?

I would also suggest that perhaps any purposed Covid 19 medal, should be aimed at those that didn't have a real choice whether they went to work or not, medical staff and the emergency services for instance. I fully appreciate that other organisations are doing a sterling job, but unlike the aforementioned public services, other organisations could just stop going to work if things started getting too dangerous? 

On 29/03/2020 at 16:56, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

Part of Whitechapel or ''H'' division's Metropolitan Police boundary was located adjacent to the City of London's Police boundary. Therefore it is possible that Police Constable 881 Edward Watkins may have known some of the Whitechapel Police personnel but we will never know that for certain. 

The Queen Victoria Metropolitan Police Jubilee medals for 1887 which were awarded to Whitechapel or ''H'' division personnel are very difficult to find and successfully purchase. Many of these Police medal groups that refer to this period have been split up for various reasons. Therefore when researching Coronation medals from 1902 and to a lessor extent 1911, it is possible to identify Whitechapel Policemen who hunted Jack the Ripper.

Here are some examples of such Policemen...……..

PC Harry Barnard joined the Metropolitan Police/Whitechapel or ''H'' division on the 11/2/1886 and served there until approximately July of 1890 and was then transferred to Chelsea or ''B'' division and remained there until he retired on pension on the 8/4/1912. The original 1887 medal is missing but an original un-engraved example has been used to complete the Coronation 1902 and 1911 group.

PC Harry Gibson joined the Metropolitan Police/Highgate [''Y'' divn.] on the 11/6/1888 but under Police Order 31/10/1888 was transferred to Whitechapel or ''H'' division's establishment to assist in the hunt for Jack the Ripper and he remained there until he retired on pension on the 23/6/1913. Coronation medal 1902 available.

PC George Todd joined the Metropolitan Police/Chelsea[Westminster] or ''B'' on the 1/12/1879 and within a few years transferred to Whitechapel or ''H'' division and remained there until he retired on pension on the 5/12/1904. Coronation medal 1902 available.

PC Edward Papworth joined the Metropolitan Police/Bow or ''K'' division on the 12/3/1877 but transferred to Whitechapel or ''H'' division on the 30/6/1880 and remained there until he retired on pension on the 10/8/1903. Recalled to duty for the Coronation of 1911 and it is this medal that is available. The research on this particular PC could only be done due to his unusual surname. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting little set of medals there Alan, thanks for sharing them with us!!!!!!!

I must admit Mark McM, I share your enthusiasm for the Khedive's Star. Especially if you can find named examples, of which I have two in my collection, both named to men from the 1st Battalion Berkshire Regiment.

The first one being......

172 Pte Edward BECKINGHAM 1st Battalion Berkshire Regiment

Joined Reading 1st February 1882 aged 19.
Labourer by trade.
Height 5` 7"
Complexion Fresh
Eyes Hazel
Hair Brown
Religion Church of England

Medical History and date arrived in station
Gosport 15.02.1882
Egypt 24.11.82
Gibraltar 21.05.1883 09.07.83 - 13.07.1883 fever. 10.05.1884 - 26.05.1884 ailment unreadable
Cairo 29.08.1884
Suakin 26.01.1885 07.05.1885 Eczsma
Cairo 27.05.1885
Wadi Halfa 14.11.1886 20.11.1885 - 03.12.1885 Eczsma
Ramleh 30.04.1886
Malta 22.05.1886


Service History
Home 30.01.82 - 10.11.1882
Egypt 11.11.82 - 11.05.1883
Gibraltar 12.05.83 - 20.08.84
Egypt 21.08.1884 - 22.05.1886
Malta 23.05.86 - 21.12.89
Home 01.01.90 - 29.01.95

Campaigns served on Eastern Sudan 1882 & Nile Frontier 1885-6
Medals Egypt Medal 1885 clasps Suakin 1885 & Tofrek, Khedive's Star 1884-86

Record of service

Egypt Campaign

Beckingham was present with the regiment during the battle of Tofrek & Ginnis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tofrek

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ginnis

Malta
1886
25 May 1886 Half a battalion, (310 men), returned from Egypt (Suakin Expedition). It was stationed in Pembroke Camp for 7 months. The other half (4 coys) moved to Cyprus on 30 May 1886. BECKINGHAM was part of the Malta contingent, had an average strength of 164 men. Of which there were 89 admissions into hospital.

1887
The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment (half battalion) had an average strength of 397 men and was quartered at Fort Ricasoli. Men from Fort Ricasoli would have supplied the infantry support for the protection of Fort Renilla and the Armstrong Gun. The battalion suffered 3 deaths in 1887 and 3 men were sent home as invalids. Large scale Cholera outbreak amongst the civilian population.

1888
3 Feb 1888 HQ Coy and half a battalion embarked at Cyprus and disembarked in Malta on 9 February. The battalion was quartered in Cottonera and Forrest Hospital. The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment had an average strength of 790 men (8 coys). The battalion suffered 4 deaths and 4 men were returned to England as invalids.

1889
The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment had an average strength of 857 men (8 coys). Suffering 6 deaths and 10 invalids returned to England.
The battalion was at Fort Ricasoli for 7 and a half months and at Lower St Elmo Barracks for 4 and a half months. It had detachments at Pembroke Camp.
Pte John Andrews drowned following an altercation with a boatman who had ferried him across the Grand Harbour to Fort Ricasoli. Subsequently, scuffles broke out between soldiers from the fort and the local inhabitants.
The following were buried in Pietà Military Cemetery in 1889:
13 Aug Pte Francis James.
18 Aug Infant William Cripps aged 1 day, son of CSgt W Cripps.
9 Oct Pte Arthur Dicker, aged 23 years.
25 Nov Pte John Cofton, aged 29 years.




Transferred to the reserve 05.01.90

Absent with leave 05.01.90 - 05.07.90

Marries Margaret FERGUSON on the 15th February 1894 at 3 Buchanan Street, Glasgow. Margaret is documented as being a widow.

Discharged 29.07.94

The second example being...

1009 Pte William Young 1st Bn, Royal Berkshire Regiment

Born Newbury, Berkshire
Joined the Berkshire Regiment on the 8th July 1884 at Reading.
Aged 19
Occupation Labour
Height 5` 4 1/4"
Eyes blue
Hair brown
Religion Church of England
Enlisting for 12 years.
Next of kin - brother Joseph box man Newbury Berks.

Served
Home (Chatham) 08.02.1884 to 04.10.1885, during his time in Chatham he had several spells in hospital for various ailments including, some sort of wound to his foot. But most notably he contracted Syphilis spending two months in hospital. He clearly didn't learn from this experience as a month later he is admitted to hospital with gonorrhea.

Egypt 05.10.1885 to 22.05.1886
Of the 230 days in Egypt he spent 64 in hospital.
05.10.1885 arrive in Egypt moves up to Wadi Haifia to join the regiment.
24.11.1885 in hospital for 11 days discharged 04.12.1885 (conjuntivitis) Wadi Haifia.
12.12.11885 in hospital for 20 days discharged 31.12.1885 (rheumatic fever) no location given. But as a result of this he missed the Battle fo Ginnis. The last engagement of the campaign.
02.01.1886 in hospital for 23 days discharged 25.01.1886 (rheumatic fever) Assuan.
22.05.1886 leaves Egypt.
Despite the numerous hospital admissions, he was entitled to the Egypt Medal undated (Nile Frontier 1885 - 1886, (but I don't believe his medal would have had any clasps) and the Khedives Star 1884-1886).

Malta 23.05.1886 to 21.02.1892
1886
25 May 1886 Half a battalion, (310 men), returned from Egypt (Suakin Expedition). It was stationed in Pembroke Camp for 7 months. The other half (4 coys) moved to Cyprus on 30 May 1886. Young was part of the Malta contingent, had an average strength of 164 men. Of which there were 89 admissions into hospital. Young was admitted to hospital twice in 1886 suffering from gonorrhea on both occasions.
1887
The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment (half battalion) had an average strength of 397 men and was quartered at Fort Ricasoli. Men from Fort Ricasoli would have supplied the infantry support for the protection of Fort Renilla and the Armstrong Gun. The battalion suffered 3 deaths in 1887 and 3 men were sent home as invalids. Young is again admitted into hospital with time suffering from a hydrocele.
1888
3 Feb 1888 HQ Coy and half a battalion embarked at Cyprus and disembarked in Malta on 9 February. The battalion was quartered in Cottonera and Forrest Hospital. The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment had an average strength of 790 men (8 coys). The battalion suffered 4 deaths and 4 men were returned to England as invalids.
1889
The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment had an average strength of 857 men (8 coys). Suffering 6 deaths and 10 invalids returned to England.
The battalion was at Fort Ricasoli for 7 and a half months and at Lower St Elmo Barracks for 4 and a half months. It had detachments at Pembroke Camp.
Pte John Andrews drowned following an altercation with a boatman who had ferried him across the Grand Harbour to Fort Ricasoli. Subsequently, scuffles broke out between soldiers from the fort and the local inhabitants.
The following were buried in Pietà Military Cemetery in 1889:
13 Aug Pte Francis James.
18 Aug Infant William Cripps aged 1 day, son of CSgt W Cripps.
9 Oct Pte Arthur Dicker, aged 23 years.
25 Nov Pte John Cofton, aged 29 years.
1890
The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment had an average strength of 875 men. Suffering 4 deaths and 16 invalids returned to England.
The battalion was at Marsamxetto Barracks and Lower St Elmo Barracks for 12 months with detachments at Pembroke Camp for 9 months.
The following were buried in Pietà Military Cemetery in 1890:
6 Aug Infant William F Waldeck aged 10 months, son of Sgt Waldeck.
11 Aug Infant Elizabeth C Bell aged 7 months, daughter of Sgt Bell.
20 Aug Infant Flores Annie Jones aged 10 months, daughter of Sgt Jones.
13 Oct Pte Frank Clarke aged 22 years.
5 Nov Child Victoria Jubilee Waldeck aged 3 years.
25 Nov Cpl Frederick Tyson aged 22 years.
19 Dec Pte E Turner aged 24 years 11 months.
1891
The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment had an average strength of 995 men.Suffered 7 deaths and 20 invalids returned to England.
The battalion was quartered at Marsamxetto Barracks and Lower St Elmo Barracks for 12 months.
22 Sep F Griffiths aged 19 years died at Cottonera and was buried in Rinella Military Cemetery.
The following were buried in Pietà Military Cemetery in 1891:
30 Jan Pte W Jackson aged 28 years.
14 Feb Pte F Buckland aged 28 years.
8 Aug Mrs Elizabeth Claydon aged 26 years wife of Sgt Claydon.
18 Aug T Bicknell aged 20 years.
Sep Infant A Claydon aged 4 months.
8 Oct Pte H Hunt aged 21 years.
30 Dec Ernest Lovelock aged 25 years.
1892
The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment had an average strength of 1004 men. The 1st/Royal Berkshire Regiment was quartered at Lower St Elmo Barracks for 12 months. It had detachments at Fort Mosta and Fort St Angelo. However Young leaves the battalion in February and returns home to England, where he surfs out the remainder of his enlistment.

Home 22.02.1892 to 01.02.1896

Discharged 1st Feb 1896

The French appear to have an award for such circumstances as well....

http://themedalhound.com/frenchmoh/main.html

21 minutes ago, Antonio Prieto said:

Attention

The one is a own "recreation" of the old crosses, as a tribute to all of you who are fighting against this covid-19 pandemic. Time will tell how these professionals are rewarded ..

Now updated

Very well presented Antonio, am impressed!!!
 

Seems the Spanish, have given some thought to an award honouring those involved in the fight against Covid 19.

Interesting thread!! Is there a web link to the actual page? 

On 22/03/2020 at 01:19, Hugh said:

Seems like a reasonable idea for those who serve in the front lines. 

Certainly more deserved than some of the medals I got for breathing in the right part of the world.  

But what would the criteria for such  a medal be?

I would suggest that those defined as "key workers" should qualify. Key workers being defined as those who didn't have a choice whether they stood the chance of being exposed to the virus.

Certainly all the emergency services and military should qualify? 

But what about qualifying time?

The Ebola Medal criteria was "21 days of continuous service or 30 days accumulated service on working visits of 48 hours or more to the operating area."

Qualifying time for the Covid Medal could be 90 days accumulated service, from the 28 February 2020 until a date to be specified? 

Medals could be engraved with the recipients name and perhaps rank if applicable? 

Position of wear, medal would be worn before the Ebola Medal but after any Long Service Medal. I believe the National Crime Agency Long Service and Good Conduct Medal would hold this distinction?

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/vets-say-their-iraq-commitment-medals-never-arrived-so-they-re-raising-money-to-pay-for-their-own-1.596181
 

https://www.kennedyinsignia.com/iraq-commitment-medal
 

Saw this earlier, thought it might make an interesting topic for discussion?

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/le ... esponders/

Although this would appear to be an American award. There was the Ebola Medal.

https://www.identifymedals.com/database/medals-by-period/post-ww2-medals/the-ebola-medal-for-service-in-west-africa/

Wonder whether we'll see a Covid 19 medal at sometime in the future? 

Have been fortunate enough to be able to reunite SCHOLES’s 1902 Coronation Medal with his 1897 Jubilee Medal and his 1911 Coronation Medal and complete his full trio entitlement. 

On 01/03/2020 at 20:30, Tom King said:

Probably taken near the time of his retirement and he may not have had his Coronation medal issued as yet so he wore a substitute for the photograph. That or he forgot it and borrowed one so he had three medals for the photo.

I agree the issue pending scenario would be the most likely.
 

But still an interesting photo all the same. 

James ENDICOTT

Born 14 Feb 1862, in Leigh, Devon.
Married Esther Bone, Kensington 1884.
Joined the Metropolitan Police on the 7th May 1888 and posted to K Division, warrant number 73628. Given his address and the fact that Limehouse Police Station was still being built in 1888 it is highly likely that he was stationed at Poplar Police Station (given his address) at the time of the Rose Mylett murder, (she was suggested Ripper victim, who was murdered at 184-186 Clarke's Yard, High Street Poplar on the 20th December 1888). 
Lived at 74 Hind Street, Poplar. Listed on census (1891,1901 & 1911) as occupation Police Constable.
Gave evidence at the Old Bailey on the 26th July 1897 (at this time he was stationed at Limehouse Police Station), in a murder trial (arresting officer collar number 424K, 27th May 1897). 

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18970726-507&div=t18970726-507&terms=Endicott#highlight

Retired 12 May 1913, having served his entire service in K Division (Poplar/Limehouse area) and moved to Cheltenham, Living 24 Naunton Crescent (939 registry retired constable)
Died 1941 Cheltenham.

1 hour ago, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

That's great news because the Police Station is :-

Poplar Police Station.

East India Dock Road, Bow or 'K' division. [Amoy Place runs at the rear of East India Dock Road and onto Birchfield Street.].

Date approx. 1898 to 1905.

many thanks....

 

Staying on the subject of K Division, a post from a few years back which might be of interest? 
 

On 02/02/2020 at 13:13, bigjarofwasps said:

First regular female police officer, LSGC I’ve seen. 

Syliva HULME

Born August 1950 (originally from Kinmel Bay)
Went to school at Abergele Grammar (Emrys ap Iwan) - photo dated April 1967 
Police Cadet  17th July 1967 joined Flintshire Constabulary 
WPC Collar number 52 and then became 1252, when WPC's become PC's.
Stationed at
Deeside 1970-72 
Hawarden 1974 -76 (circ)
Buckley 1975
Flint 1983 (circ) 
Holywell 1983 (circ)
Mold 1991 (front desk)
Mold 1996 (retired)
Prestatyn (Traffic Dept at some point)
Played on the Force Net Ball Team and was also a Fed Rep and was Narpo treasurer. 
Lived at 16 Cae Y Dderwen, Greenfield, Holywell. 
Died 23rd October 2016 aged 69. Assets £905,873. 
 

The book does come up from time to time and always commands a premium for some reason, certainly worthy of a reprint. 
I have concerns about whether LEESON was a bit of a fantasist, as I seem to recall he claims to have seen Jack the Ripper on a train in Australia years later.......

Walter DEW’s book is worth a read and a lot cheaper. He had a confirmed involvement in the Ripper case. 

On 25/02/2020 at 09:15, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

It will be interesting to see what final value is placed on '''PS [CID] Hilda D Coles''' QE11 L.S.G.C. medal' [Metropolitan Police], as there is still several days left before the sale is completed. Already it has 22 bids and the price stands at £127.00 plus postage. That just proves there are quite a few individuals/collectors out there, that appreciate her medal.  

......£216 plus postage and packing!!!

Who’d have thought!!!!!

A few years back, this medal sold on EBay. Bit of conjecture as to whether he did actually attend the COLES murder scene after hearing THOMPSON’s whistle. 
 

Is £320 a bit steep?

I don’t know, he was certainly wounded at Sidney Street. 

7 hours ago, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

It will be interesting to see what final value is placed on '''PS [CID] Hilda D Coles''' QE11 L.S.G.C. medal' [Metropolitan Police], as there is still several days left before the sale is completed. Already it has 22 bids and the price stands at £127.00 plus postage. That just proves there are quite a few individuals/collectors out there, that appreciate her medal.  

Agreed, would be interesting to see what this fetches and whether is is because it’s to a female or because of the unusual naming or both!!!

Can’t imagine there being many female LSGC recipients during the 50’s and 60’s?  
 

Would be interesting to know whether as a  female member of CID, if she was involved in any high profile cases that occurred during that period? 

5 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

This is an interesting example.

 

Am curious  to know why it’s named PS and not DS?

 

Why is it named  PS and not Sergt? 

Why has CID been included? 
 

It would appear to be a pre 2000 issue as it’s not Rhodium played?

 

Would be interested to hear people’s thoughts. 
 

 

It appears that.................. 

The death of a Hilda Doris COLES was recorded in Lambeth, London in the third quarter of 1985. Her birth date is stated to be 3rd August 1913.

Norfolk baptism records show Hilda Doris WARD of 1, Beckham Road, Lowestoft, birth date 3rd August 1913, so that seems to check out.

Her marriage to William A. COLES was registered at Hendon in the first quarter of 1940. The 1939 register says he was a Special Constable. No trace of Hilda can be found on the 1939 census, so perhaps she was serving in the forces when it was compiled, female personnel often left the forces on marriage in those early days, so one theory could be that her police service started around 1940, which could date the LSGC to circa 1960. 

This would certainly account for the issue box, but not for why the W has been tippexed out?

All in all a very interesting engraving anomaly!!