Here is a copy of the photograph of the Officers from Corwen, North Wales in 1919. You can just make out that most of them have the 1911 Coronation medal, several of the men on the back row appear to have 3 and 4 medals, which I assume are WW1 or Boer War medals? 

8 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

It is worth bearing in mind that in 1911 Corwen was NOT in Denbighshire but in Merionethshire. So, I think your enquiry should perhaps relate to the former Merionethshire Constabulary. Local government re-organisation later placed Corwen in Denbighshire. I hope this is helpful.

You're quite correct .

On 10/8/2010 at 23:46, pikemedals said:

hi odin mk3, there is a medal roll for the county and borough ref is HO 45/19198 at kew and for the royal park police it is HO 45/19196. i never seen the royal park medal roll myself. i did get the c&b medal roll out once but that was a few years ago. some constabularys only got a few medals as little as 5 if remember right.i been ill this week so i never made it to the national archives.if i make a trip next week i will get a copy of the roll and can post it on the site.paul.ps love your book

Is this roll by name or force? Did you ever get round to going to Kew? I'd be interesting in knowing how many medals were awarded to Denbighshire Constabulary. There's an old photo in Corwen Station dated 1919 and most of the bobbies on there appear to have the 1911 medal, think there must be about 20 or so of them, there all named as well, but there all Jones, Evans, etc as you can imagine, but a couple of them you can just make out their collar numbers. I'll see if I can get a copy of it and post it on the site. 

5 hours ago, Craig said:

I think with the new conditions of service and graduate entries coming into Supt rank etc the chances of anyone completing even 20 years of service will be hard enough let alone 40!

So that's a no from Craig then.

Tongue in cheek as it might be, I think you might be right, as time goes by policing will become just something people do for a few years, just to put onto their CV's .

18 hours ago, MetPolice said:

I'll happily support 

Zeb

Don't mean to be a sceptic, I like the idea of the bar/clasp, but I don't think a government petition is the way forward. You need 100,000 signatures, before they'll even entertain the concept and 10,000 before they'll send you a letter like Metpolice's saying they won't entertain the idea, HOWEVER, I'm happy to give it a try on behalf of the forum, the only thing I ask is for at least 10 people on here to agree to support the idea, Metpolice is one so another 9 required. 

Kuwait or Northern Iraq Southern Turkey perhaps?

19 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

The divisional letters and the numbers are indeed removable, and interchangeable between plates.

The King's Crown versions have been selling on the internet auction site for £200 plus. I've not seen a Victorian example offered for sale but I would imagine that it would attract quite a bit of interest and an appropriate hammer price. 

Thanks Dave, that's very interesting. I'll keep my eyes open and report back if I come across any examples.

Perhaps this is a concept that will be considered at some point in the future, once it becomes more common for officers to achieve 40 years service. Especially when you consider that it took until 1951 before a regular Police LSGC was even considered in the first place!!!

Going off topic slightly, but remaining on the same subject it I  may, it appears that Officers who completed 20 years service but left the police before the qualification period was reduced from 22 years, aren't entitled to claim their medal retrospectively? There's one of the those Government petitions started by someone called John H Donaldson on the subject, it's only had a couple of signatures, but doesn't run out until September this year.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125334

5 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

Thank you for taking the time to look up the details of PC Hayward. The helmet plate depicted is in fact a Victorian version adorned with what is commonly known as a "Guelphic" Crown. That said, the Met. continued to wear it for several years after Victoria's death. The King's Crown version was approved by the Commissioner, Edward Henry on 2nd November 1906,and subsequently sealed by the Receiver's Office on that date. So, PC Hayward (joining in 1910) would have been issued with the King's Crown version. As you correctly say, divisional numbers were re-issued and a further potential complication is that in recent years collectors have "swopped about" divisional letters (and in some cases numbers) between different helmet plates. This has been done for a variety of reasons and as a result it is now almost impossible to say with any degree of certainty that a particular numbered helmet plate was worn by a particular man.   

Best wishes, Dave.

I am understanding this correctly, that the numbers and letters on these helmet plates are interchangeable? I had always assumed that they were cast, but having them interchangeable certainly makes more sense. 

Just out of interest, should I ever track one of these helmet plates down (I've never seen any for sale), how much should I look at paying for one? 

It's also interesting to learn that they continued to use the Victoria version after she'd died and didn't replace them straight away with a Kings Crown version.

In the 11 years since I started this post, I haven't seen a single other medal to a NWP officer!!!!!! The fact that the officers force isn't engraved on the rim doesn't help and I'm relying solely on any documents or packaging, like the one I started the thread with has made this a truly daunting task!!!!!! 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/32/a3563732.shtml

http://www.submerged.co.uk/the-wreck-of-the-gairsoppa.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176025/SS-Gairsoppa-US-company-recovers-48-tons-silver-British-wartime-shipwreck.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Gairsoppa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-101_(1940)

Gairsoppa SS was a British Cargo Steamer of 5,237 tons built by Palmers, Hebburn, England for MOWT as the WAR ROEBUCK SS but completed as the GAIRSOPPA SS for the British India SN Co. On the 17th February 1917 she was torpedoed by German submarine U-101 and sunk.

The SS Gairsoppa was a British cargo steamship that began her career in 1919 under the service of the British India Steam Navigation Company. She engaged in commercial shipping activity in the waters off the Far East, Australia and East Africa. By January 1941, the SS Gairsoppa was enlisted in the service of the UK Ministry of War Transport.

She started her final voyage from Calcutta, India in December 1940 loaded with nearly 7,000 tons of diverse medium and high-value cargo, including 2600 tons pig iron, 1765 tons of tea, 2369 tons of general cargo, and a 600,000 UK Sterling silver ignots (3 million ounces).

Departing without a military escort, the Gairsoppa and convoy SL-64 sailed the dangerous waters of the Atlantic, intending to rendezvous with convoy HG-63, which was escorted by two warships. As the convoy reached the northern latitudes, the Gairsoppa, loaded down with a heavy cargo, was forced to further reduce speed due to high winds and ocean swells.

As the weather worsened on February 14, 1941, the Gairsoppa, running low on coal and with insufficient fuel to keep up with the convoy, was forced to sail independently and to head for Galway in western Ireland.

On February 17, 1941, German Boat Commander Ernst Mengersen submerged his 66.5 meter-long U-boat 101, and torpedoed the Gairsoppa causing her to sink.

Of the 32 crew members who boarded lifeboats after the attack, all perished except for one survivor who, 13 days later, reached shore at the Lizard lighthouse, Cornwall, England.

Treasure from the deep:

Thousands of silver bars that were meant to fund Britain's WWII effort but were sunk by German U-boat FINALLY reach their destination - and will be sold as coins.

• Merchant ship carrying silver from India for the war effort was sunk in 1941.
• Its cargo of 2,800 bars of silver has sat on the bed of the Atlantic ever since
• Record-breaking bid to salvage the silver from three miles down a success
• The Royal Mint is now making the metal into coins to remember the tragedy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2596785/Thousands-silver-bars-sunken-WWII-ship-sold-coins.html

Sunshine Mint (USA) have also produced an ounce round......

10 troy ounce bar.......

Irish and not French, that is interesting. Can't believe Ireland deployed so many times to the Lebanon!!!

Was surfing the net when I came across two medal groups, with a particular medal that had been awarded 10 times in one group and 6 in the other. I've tried to identify it, but have been unable to so, can anyone identify it?

Deathbed confession may have revealed location of 'Nazi gold train' 28th August 2015...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/28/nazi-gold-train-deathbed-confession-may-have-revealed-location

Nazi gold train tunnel DOES exist - New radar images of 70ft underground proves claims- 22nd Sept 2015...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/607945/Nazi-gold-train-exists-radar-70ft-underground

'Nazi gold train' investigators start surveying site in Poland - 8th November 2015...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/08/nazi-gold-train-investigators-start-excavating-poland

There is no Nazi gold train, Polish scientists say - 15th December 2015...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/there-is-no-nazi-gold-train-polish-scientists-say 

Full story -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold_train

18 hours ago, Great Dane said:

Interesting indeed...

I wonder how old stuff has to be to be handed over to the state?
Different countries, different laws?

If I find a gold coin from, say 1985, in my back yard can I keep it?

/Michael

I think if you found one 1985 gold sovereign in your garden, I don`t think there would be an issue, but if you found say 3 Viking gold coins then you should really report it as they will be of historical interest. However, the coins in this case I assume were reported because there were so many of them and they may have been stolen it was only later that there were discovered to have a Nazi connection. But it's not only stuff found buried in the ground, this is a very interesting news report about gold found in a bank...

http://osnetdaily.com/2014/12/switzerland-still-holds-half-dutch-gold-looted-nazis/

Here's another news report about these coins, which makes interesting reading.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3162591/Gold-hoard-buried-Nazi-era-just-WW2-Germany.html

LOS ANGELES A Northern California couple out walking their dog on their Gold Country property stumbled across a modern-day bonanza: $10 million in rare, mint-condition gold coins buried in the shadow of an old tree.Nearly all of the 1,427 coins, dating from 1847 to 1894, are in uncirculated, mint condition, said David Hall, co-founder of Professional Coin Grading Service of Santa Ana, which recently authenticated them. 

The only thing I ever seem to find is other peoples dog poo!!!!!!!

SS Central America, known as the Ship of Gold, was a 280-foot (85 m) sidewheel steamer that operated between Central America and the eastern coast of the United States during the 1850s. She was originally named the SS George Law, after Mr. George Law of New York. The ship sank in a hurricane in September 1857, along with more than 420 passengers and crew and 30,000 pounds (14,000 kg) of gold, contributing to the Panic of 1857.

http://shipwrecks.ws/SS-Central-America-Shipwreck.html

http://www.shipwreck.net/ssrepublicartifacts-treasures.php

Over 51,000 U.S. gold and silver coins were recovered from the Republic wreck site, as well as nearly 14,000 artifacts "a stunning assortment of 19th century goods in use during the Civil War years.

Shortly after beginning the archaeological excavation in November 2003, a substantial number of gold coins was discovered at the stern of the ship, near the ship’s rudder. Using Odyssey Marine Exploration's proprietary Sediment Removal and Filtration (SeRF) system on the ROV ZEUS, sand was carefully removed from the site, revealing a dazzling carpet of gold hidden on the ocean floor for nearly 140 years.

More than 51,000 gold and silver coins were recovered from the seabed, including numerous $20.00 Double Eagles, $10.00 Eagles, silver half dollars and even a few silver quarter dollars each coin individually retrieved by the silicone limpet device attached to the ROV’s manipulator arm. All of the coins have been professionally conserved by Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS) and graded by Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC). Unlike other recently salvaged shipwrecks, a wide variety of dates and mints ranging from the 1840’s to 1865 have been documented in this remarkable hoard including many of the finest-known examples of United States gold and silver coins from the period and highly collectable today.

In addition to its extraordinary cargo of gold coins, the SS Republic’s treasure yielded some exceptionally unique silver half dollars and provided an unprecedented opportunity for numismatic research.

In 1861, three different governments (the United States Government, the Louisiana government and the Confederacy) had control of the New Orleans Mint and struck silver half dollars there. Due to the large number of 1861-O Liberty Seated half dollars found on the SS Republic, coin experts were finally able to determine which coins were minted by each government by analyzing the subtle variations caused by the use of different dies. This research was published in the Gobrecht Journal in November 2006 and for the first time ever has allowed 1861-O Seated Liberty half dollars to be certified by Numismatic Guaranty Corporation as being minted by each of the three governments operating in Louisiana in 1861. After thorough documentation and reserving a representative sample for the permanent collection, Odyssey has made these historic coins available to collectors as individual coins or in a set representing all three minting governments in the New Orleans Mint Three Government Set.

A full set of 1861-O half dollars containing all 17 die variations is currently on display with 28 other rare coins from the SS Republic at the Louisiana State Museum located in the old U.S. Mint where the coins were originally minted.

Also aboard the Republic were stunningly preserved silver half dollars struck in the North by the U.S. Philadelphia Mint. These were found on the wreck site laying side by side with equally remarkable silver halves struck in the South’s New Orleans Mint. Together they symbolize the mighty struggle that divided the country in 1865, and today they make up an impressive Civil War Blue & Gray 1861 Half-Dollar Collection.

Of the many historic coins recovered from the shipwreck of the SS Republic, none captures the imagination more than the mystery-shrouded Civil War Coin, an 1858 silver half dollar minted in New Orleans and hand-inscribed with the word “WAR” and “1861” on the front of the coin and “EC” perhaps someone’s initials on the reverse. Who was “EC”? A soldier for the South? Or a Yankee from the North? Was this a talisman or pocket piece carried in battle? Or was it a political or news commentary slipped into circulation? 

On 3/15/2016 at 03:16, Hugh said:

I'm thinking of the wrong Republic.  My Republic sank just after the US Civil War (1866, I think) with a load of gold coins and other valuables.  I should have paid attention to the date on the coins. 

 

Sorry,

Hugh

An interesting youtube film, well worth a watch, contains footage of some nice recovered coins. 

On 3/11/2016 at 20:13, Deelibob said:

I have seen a photograph of a relative taken 1943 in which he sports the ribbon of the 1939-45 star.  There was also an article  many years ago regarding medal ribbon collector Lionel Guille (Founder Member of OMRS) and photo of him inspecting WW2 Medal ribbon being manufactured in 1942/43. So it is possible that Christie is wearing the Defence Medal ribbon.

 I do not know of serial killers but certainly know of five men who served in WW1 went on to kill and took the nine o'clock walk for their trouble.

The Blazing car Murderer, Travelling Salesman Alfred Rouse, 24th London Regiment, wounded during a bayonet fight at Festubert 1915 and discharged wounded  with a Silver war badge badge 1916. (Suffered terrible nightmares) Entitled to WW1 Trio.

The Crowborough Chicken Farm Murderer, Small holding owner Norman Thorne.  Entitled BWM and Victory (Poss. Named to RNAS)

"The Dandelion Dead"  Murderer,Solicitor Herbert Rowse Armstrong TD MA Entitled to TD,TEM and BWM. Don't think he served overseas. (It may be that the TEM was handed in on his being awarded the TD as some officers did)

 Police Killers, Garage Owners Browne and Kennedy who murdered Essex Police Constable  George Gutteridge c. 1927 during the theft of a Morris Cowley motor car. I believe both entitled to Trio's but not confirmed.

I would not doubt there are many more.

Hope of interest.

Peter

OMRS = Orders and Medals Research Society

 

 

I agree with regards to medal ribbons I have a photograph of a relative wearing the 1939-45 star & Burma ribbons, taken I believe in 1945, in France. Not sure when the Defence medal ribbon was issued for wear mind?

With to the other murders, very interesting reading thank you for sharing it with us. It would certainly be the case with so many men serving in the First World War that some of them would be bad apples, in later life. 

I still can't get my head round what the big secret is? Especially when you consider examples like the Hampshire & Edinburgh both of which were ram jam full of gold.