Martin W

Hello Martin

Is that Kurt Knispel's Erkennungsmarke?

Larry

Hi Larry,

i beleive it is.

The subject was recently discussed on the GCA forum.

For the sake of discussion in regards to this subject i will post the GCA thread below with thanks to Jirka and i hope this is OK to post this link here at GMIC.

There are some intersesting images here,but the text in most of the links are in the Czech language.

Regards,Martin

.http://www.germancombatawards.com/thread.php?threadid=40536

I beleive they also identified him by the dog tag they found.

Regards,Martin.

Zerstorer Leberecht Maass.

A couple of new additions in my collection.

First,is another example of the Marinenachrichtenschule.Odulf posted the same type of tally in post # 21.

If i collected LW awards,i would want one too John.

I will keep my eyes open for you.

Regards,Martin.

I see no problems with this badge.

IMO it is an original sterling piece that was made in Japan.

The faults in the lines of longitude and latitude are typical of the individual hand finishing that can be seen on these pieces.

However,as much as i would like to have it i am not prepared to pay what these sterling marked badges are going for now.

I am perfectly happy with my incomplete and worn tombak example.

Regards,Martin.

My latest addition.

"Segelschulschiff Gorch Fock".

The photo is dated 1937.

Regards,Martin.

Great indeed Joe,

well,at least for us HK geeks.

Nice to see this plain example of the Taufschein for VP.Lutje of the THOR 1.

I see that the dates are the same,6,7.40 and have the same "Neptun" signature by Kahler.

I have seen a few of these "uncoloured" examples.

I think that Walter Nehm liked to add colour to some of his items.Here is a hand coloured photo i have of him that he may well have done himself along with the Equator document ??

Regards,Martin.

Hello All:

These are especially special to me because all three were printed or mimoegraphed aboard the ship. The paper is a bit frail and faded, but the documents still speak their history boldly. Joe

Great items from the ORION Joe and thanks for showing.I just love the "artwork" ,as crude as it is on those doc's.

Here is one that is special to me from the THOR 1.

Given to Matr.Gefr.Walter Nehm.It is hand coloured and the signature of "Neptun" on the bottom is by the hand of Otto Kahler,the Commander of THOR 1.

Regards,Martin.

I beleive we dicussed this "sterling repro" at WAF some months ago,but i cannot find the thread there.

With help,i am posting the WAF thread here to continue the discussion in regards to the "fake sterling badges".

I hope this is OK.

Regards,Martin.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=614877&highlight=Aux+Cruiser+sterling+silver

It seems to relate to a reproduction of the "sterling" badge and it involves Sascha Weber.

I beleive we dicussed this "sterling repro" at WAF some months ago,but i cannot find the thread there.

Regards,Martin.

I have no idea what this represents but the date at the bottom right of the plaque appears to read 1941 ??

Can you confirm this date Itaca ??

Regards,Martin.

Hi Claudiu,

The badge appears to be a poorly cast fake of a Schwerin badge,sorry to say.

Regards,Martin.

The official Kriegsmarine designation “Hilfskreuzer” is larger than just what we think of as the “raiders.” The auxiliary minelayer Doggerbank is an example. It was designated as a Hilfskreuzer, but it was not a “raider” per se. The raises the question were all auxiliary minelayers dispatched on foreign missions designated “Hilfskreuzer” and did crewman qualify for the Viking boat badge?

I don’t have the MV/NTB handy, but I think (writing from memory here folks...) that it specifically only authorizes the Viking boat badge to crewmen of an “armed merchant cruiser.”

However we have these exceptions:

1) The Doggerbank crew qualified for the HSK badge

2) The men who trans-shipped from Tannenfels and spent only one month aboard Atlantis, before departing on other unarmed prize ships were awarded the HSK badge

3) A supply ship crewman who spent three weeks aboard Kormoran before departing and was awarded the HSK badge

4) A group of sailors trans-shipped to Komet for a short time who were awarded the HSK badge

5) The crewmen of Brake who wore the HSK badge (why?) (Are there other ships in this category?)

There is indeed 5% to 15+% of additional non armed merchant cruiser crewman who trans-shipped from supply ships to raiders, were added to the rolls, and then trans-shipped off again later or were assigned to prize crews.....I would argue these men probably were awarded HSK Badges.

I hear a lot of Uckermark men wearing the HSK badge. True? Can someone confirm via photo?

It seems to me that qualifying for the HSK badge was up to varied interpretation and may expand to others that most people don’t consider when counting totals.

I really look forward to carrying on this discussion and refining what we know as a group!

Joe

Thanks for this fascinating information Joe.

The Brake was a supply tanker of 9925 tons.The Charlotte Schliemann was another tanker and from what i recall on an old WAF thread,collector Monsun had a Japanese badge from a crewman who served on the Uckermark and the Charlotte Schliemann ?

Regards,Martin.

But as time is running, there aren’t many fellows to ask unfortunately…

BR,

Chris

Hi Chris,

with the help of a friend,i am working on trying to get information here from a couple of former THOR crewmen.

I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Regards,Martin.

Hi Martin,

. Will it be possible for you to repost your info regarding meridians (obviously they were added to the badges later by pretty steady hand - most likely conventionally) in this thread (you'll need to be registered with GCA to see original thread).

Hi Nick,

basically,when i finally got one of these Japanese made awards i noticed that the lines of longitude and latitude were individually engraved by hand.

When i compared my badge with other examples i could see that the cuts that extended into the wreath area were different on each individual badge that featured these lines.

Regards,Martin.

I also think that the badges being discussed were made in Japan for the German crewmen. They could have been made either by a jeweler or in a shipyard. The Japanese shipyards could make anything in my opinion--heck, if they could make a gigantic battleship, they could make a badge.

I have lived in Korea and Japan and I warned my American friends never to ask for something, even as a joke. Your hosts will get it for you since you put them on the spot. I believe that if the Captain of a German ship, or the naval attache, asked if the badge could be copied, the Japanese would have moved mountains to fulfill the request, even if they did not particularly want to.

I have worked in several shipyards in my life--they are amazing places and it is incredible what a machinist can do in them. So I think the badge could have been made by a jeweler or in a shipyard shop without much effort--just the directive to get it done from the Japanese hosts.

Since the design looks Asian to me, I do not think it was made in one of the German ships' machine shop, even though those sailors were also quite ingenious to keep their vessels moving so far away from Germany. At the same time, the AC badge looks a bit crude (do not get me wrong, I really like the badge and wish I had one) also pointing me to the shipyard machinists over a skilled jeweler, but who knows? I am just advancing another idea.

Some interesting points John and all quite credible.

I just wish i could have had the opportunity to talk to former crewmen of the THOR's 2nd cruise in regards to these awards.

Why the "sterling" stamp exists, I do not know nor do I think it is that important since the badge itself has provenance with the mark. It exists for some reason that made perfect sense then and little sense now.

Amen to that.

Regards, Martin.

Hi Martin,

By the way, what do you think about the approximate number of issued "japanese" HK?

According to the vet memories every crewmen got the badge.

If so, I wonder how many of theses badges were made in our mysterious Yokohama workshop ...

Cheers,

Nick

Hi Nick,

as you say the numbers are approximate.

I have the complete crewlists from both the Thor 1 & 2.

On the second cruise of the Thor i have about 369 names.

My recoerds indicate that the ships compliment of the Michel was about 400.

So,we have about,lets say about 770 crewmen,give or take.

I wonder if the men who served on the 1st cruise of the Thor and had already received the HK badge,received this Japanese badge on the 2nd cruise?

I am inclinded to think no.

I do not have any exact numbers here in regards to these crewmen who served on both cruises without further study on my behalf.

Regards,Martin.

Hi Martin,

as far as I know these badges were issued to crewmen of the "Thor", "Michel", "Doggerbank" (later "Charlotte Schliemann") and "Uckermark".

Regards,

Nick

Hi Nick,

i do agree here.In fact,i think that there was a constant exchange of crewmen from the various ships that operated in and out of Japan.prior to and espacially after the Uckermark and the Thor were desroyed by fire in Yokohama on November 30 1942.

Many of these "stranded" crewmen from the Thor and Uckermark went to serve on other ships.

As we know,the Thor commander,Gunther Gumprich took over command of the Michel when her Commander Helmuth von Ruchkteschell fell ill and was hospitalised in Tokyo.

Many of the former Thor crewmen joined Gumprich on the ill-fated second cruise of the Michel.

Other crewmen from the Thor joined the crews of the Blockeade Breakers operating out of Japan,in hope to return to Germany.These ships include the Blockade Breakers,Irene,Pietro Orsolo and the Regensberg.

In fact,about 43 members of the Uckermark joined the the crew of the Regensburg.

Some former Thor crewmen were killed on the Doggerbank when she was sunk off the Azores in March 1943 by one of her own U-Boats,(U-43).

There was only one survivor.

But i think that to earn the HK award you had to have service on one of the Raiders?

I find it hard to beleive that these awards were given to crewmen who served on Blockade Breakers only,but who knows ?

Regards,Martin.

To the question of the fitting. I personally think, that Japanese maker tried to be "as realistic as possible" to the origin/official (German) one and no japanese fittings (Needles( Hooks) were allowed.

BR, Chris

I have to agree here Chris.

There were crewmen who served on the Thor's 2nd Cruise under Gumprich that also served on the Thor's 1st cruise under Kahler.

These men had already received the HK award for this service and were probably awarded badges made by Juncker or Schwerin ?

I can only presume that the dies for these sterling and tombak HK badges were designed from an existing German award and this can be seen in the reverse hardware with the block hinge and wide mainpin.

Having said that,these badges do not resemble any of the known German awards in "overall design".

As we know these badges were made from sterling or tombak.The HK award documents from the Thor and MIchel are dated in early 1943.

Correct me if i am wrong,but i beleive at this time German manufacturers were producing awards primarily in zinc.

The question remains as to who made them??

After viewing Nick's fine overview of Japanese awards that show us the variations in reverse set up's and marks,i think that these HK awards were not made by a major producer of military awards but by a small workshop in Yokohama?

In regards to the lines of latitude and longitude see my thread here that i posted at GCA.

http://www.germancombatawards.com/thread.php?threadid=39010

I also think that each one of these badges were individually hand finished.This also explains the difference in the outlines and the application of the sterling stamp on the silver examples.

The bottom line for me is that i think these badges were NOT made in Germany and were made in Japan for the crewmen of the Thor after they were stranded there when the ship was destroyed by fire in Yokohama Harbour.They were also issued to crewmen of the Michel that also operated out of Japan.

The images posted by Monsun in post # 3 is compelling evidence that these "non-German" made badges were produced and "worn" by crewmen who served on ships operating out of Japan.

There is still a lot to learn about these awards?

Regards,Martin.

Hi Guys,

On close comparison of Monsun's second portrait photo with Martin's Schwerin and Japanese Hilfskreuzer badges, I think we can definitely say it's another example of the Japanese badge in wear. Despite the differences in angle, you can see key areas that correspond with the Japanese badge like the high eagle's head, lack of post at the stern, tall bottom wreath ribbon and matching position of the lines of longitude.

Best regards,

---Norm

Great comparison images Norm.

As always,well presented and informative.

Thank you,Martin.

The clincher is the information on this reference website on silver hallmarks around the world, http://www.925-1000.com/foreign_marks2.html , an excerpt of which I've attached here which shows that between 1928 and 1954 Japan used the "STERLING" mark.

Best regards,

---Norm

Excellent.

Thanks for this information Norm.

Regards,Martin.

Well, we are all entitled to our opinions Morten but i guarantee that these badges were "not" made in Germany.

First,they match no known German design and why would a German manufacturer produce a few hundred badges because "some wanted a slightly different design" and then ship them all the way to Japan ??????

I also think that a "Japanese Jeweler" is more likely to use the word "sterling" on the reverse of his wares than a major German award manufacturer during WWII.

I could go on here but i ask other members who collect KM awards,and especially if you have some Hilfskreuzer awards in your collection,do you honestly think that these sterling and tombak "Japanese" awards were made in Germany ??

I know what i think,what do you think?

Thanks and regards,Martin.

Hi Chris,

i have seen a couple of these awards before and they are quite fascinating.

I still have no idea as to where they were made,Singapore or Japan ??

"Collani" has some great and rare items in his collection.On this forum he goes by the the name of "Monsun",and his wonderful HK awards and photo's from Japan can be seen in this thread.

I do admit it would be nice to find out "who" was the maker of these Japanese HK awards,but where to start ??

Regards,Martin.

Hi Martin,

A beautiful item - for sure!

Do you know any sources, e.g. who's saying the story about the jeweller in Yokohama? Intersting point might be the question, what about the Japanese made Iron Cross and the commemorative medal for the u-boat members (e.g. the so-called Monsum-boats).

BR, Chris

No positive sources really,although it is mentioned in Gordon's book "War Badges of the Kriegmarine" that "the German Naval Attache in Tokyo,Admiral Wennecker,commissioned the manufacture of a number of specimens,reputedly from a Japanese Jeweler in Yokohama".

I am also not sure if there is any link between these HK awards and the awards made for the U-Boat men?

Is it possible that the U-Boat awards could have been made in Singapore ?

Here is an award document i have for the Hilfskreuzer badge to a crewman from the THOR.It is signed in Yokohama by the Commander of the THOR,Gunther Gumprich.

Regards,Martin.