Dave Alexander

Robin, # 53 is modern QRL and # 54 is 17/21L Mess Dress which was popular through the 40s & 50s as you can see from the rather dated lapels. In the 60s these all but disappeared as the Regt was split up and different Squadrons were sent to "incidents" in South East Asia, Aden and the Persian Gulf. By the mid 60s the Regt had reformed in Germany and the messes became more stabilized but few members of the Sgts/WOs mess ever possessed these preferring lounge suits or sports coats/blazers. Don't know the status of the present QRL as they are rotating Sqns to Afghanistan, where, incidentally, my Grandfather served in the 20s. "The more things change, the more they stay the Same"

The blazer badges come in different sizes the more modern ones seem to get smaller all the time, perhaps because of the cost of bullion. The two uniforms are of different eras as we see by the button arrangement. The Regt only has a limited number of these antiques and are usually worn only on special occasions by lance orderlies ( anybody who can fit into them). The one on the right is more correct in that the crown looks to be Victorian as is the motto. The one on the left, however, looks to be someone's attempt to "dress up" a plain uniform. If my rheumy old eyes don't deceive me the WO II crown is a modern QE II one with what appears to be one of the small blazer badges. I am not a collector, in fact I own no books pertaining to anything military all I can do is offer some knowledge of what I experienced during my time in the Army. Little did I know that after de-mob the REALLY interesting experiences lay ahead!

17/21L first arrived in Germany in Dec 1951 as part of 20th Armrd Bde, 6th Armrd Div, stationed in Munster. In Sept 1957 they moved to Paderborn until Dec 1959. Thence to Far East and Middle East returning to Sennelager Jan '63. After that, Munster again then Fallingbostel. Sick of the cold, wet weather I emigrated to California and left them to it.

The motto always assumed "the cyclops position" whenever we donned headsets.

YOU 'ORRIBLE LITTLE MAN! THE MOTTO GOES ABOVE YOUR LEFT EYE, NOT YOUR LEFT EAR 'OLE!!

I had a handmade Shantung silk tablecloth made for me in Hong Kong in 1960 that was almost identical. The 17/21L used this type of design on Regtl and Sqn HQ signs and on stationary, Xmas cards etc. On amalgamation the lances were added to the motto on the beret and also a scarlet cloth background taken from the 16/5L.

The Motto today (remember it's "Motto" not "Badge"!) is backed by crossed lances taken from the 16/5L. The top of the No 1 dress caps are now scarlet instead of blue, the 16/5L were known as "The Scarlet Lancers" and each of the sabre squadrons as well as being designated A, B, C, and D are sub-titled 17th, 21st, 16th and 5th. I don't have my Regimental Journal at hand so I'm not sure which is which.

Having served in the 17/21L for a number of years I should add my two cents worth. The arm badges were worn directly on the stripes by Cpls, Sgts and S/Sgts. There are several variations in use changing here and there over the years. In general, the more ugly and grotesque the badge, the older it is. You must realise that there are serving members today whose ancestors (umpty Great- Grandfathers) who charged with the 17th at Balaklava, there were several in the Regt when I served '59 - '71. Badges, collar dogs and buttons have been handed down in the family from father to son to son etc. Those serving today, on promotion, would wear the handed down badge and gain a great deal of prestige or in modern terms "street cred". On amalgamation the 16/5L were infuriated that they had to discard their badge and wear the 17/21L badge, which, by the way, is referred to as "The Motto" and NEVER, EVER the "Badge".

My paternal grandfather served with the 1/18 London Regt during WW1. He related how after a call went out to the British public that the troops at the front were short of cigarettes they received so many tins of them that they paved the trenches with them to keep their feet dry.

Merv, I'm confused as to the Canadians "cutting" corners. Sterling silver, as you say, is 92.5% silver(.925) and 7.5% another metal, usually copper. This is to strengthen the material as 99.9% Fine Silver would be too soft to be practical, it would wear down in no time. The medal couldn't be worn in a row as the overlap would destroy it. Before the 1880s, I think it was, Sterling was defined as .980 or so, if you have any silver medals before that date take care of them.

Nice display, very impressive. In Centurions the selector boxes to the left of the WS 19 (as you look at it) had a position for ITT (Infantry-Tank Telephone). This was a handset attached to the back of the tank in an armoured steel box that had a flap on the bottom. You dropped the flap pulled on the handset which was attached to a retractable cord-reel and after pressing the buzzer could communicate with the crew if they were closed down. We also used it for forward observation. The tank would be completely hidden behind a hill , in a gully, wadi, whatever and a member of the crew, usually the driver would run the handset out to a position where he could spot targets. The targets would be soft-skinned vehicles, buildings etc, that you would engage with HE. The observer would call the shots and then make any necessary corrections. Those on the receiveing end would have no clue where they were coming from.

Leigh, as you mentioned badges can be worn before, after etc, for example you have the 9/12L amalgamation dated 11/9/60 but personnel of the 9L and 12L in Basic Trng at Catterick in Oct 1959 were issued 9/12L badges.

His records in National Archives show him as Laurence Cecil Carr 192069 Serjeant (as it was spelled then) Machine Gun Corps 1914 - 1920. His MIC Ref # is WO372/4 and you can download a copy for 2 GB pounds. Hope this helps.

The family name of Marklew is quite common in the West Midlands with parish entries in the Birmingham/Litchfield area dating to the 16th century. I'm not familiar with the present naming of counties having left the UK so long ago but I seem to remember that B'ham was in Warwickshire was it not?

By squinting my eyes top right of reverse looks like the number 5723119 or 5123119, below that the number is repeated with the initials D H or D M between them. On the left side definitely the name MARKLEW and at the bottom beneath the rat (no pun)the word ARMY. There is some undefined scribble along the rat's back. Hope this helps.

Google Translations or Translator, there is a free website I use, just indicate the languages then type in one and it will translate it into the other. Dutch is one of many. Sometimes the translation is a little "awkward" because of the differences in grammar, nuances and subtleties but you can usually figure it out.

Kangol was founded in Cumbria in 1938 and was one of the largest suppliers to the Army during and after WW2. Since 2002 the Bollman Co in USA have had global sales rights and only 7 employees remain in their office in Cumbria. The berets are now manufactured in the USA and Eastern Europe (and China too I'll wager).

As far as I can gather only Sgts and Officers wore it until 1900 and after that all ranks wore it. It consists of 5 pieces of overlapping silk 9" long for Officers and 7" long for all others.

A crown on the lower sleeve, both sleeves, would be a CSM (Company Sgt-Major) in the Infantry.

Sent a PM to Stefan. This type of pin was issued 1921-1946, by membership number looks to have been issued 1944-45, after 1946 a smaller version was used but may still have been large ones in stock until all were used up.

I don't have the information immediately at hand but from memory I believe this pin is from the 1950s.

Notes from Wikipedia: Army and Navy Co operative Society founded 1871 by Officers, acquired by House of Fraser in 1976 was called Army and Navy Stores til 2005 then called House of Fraser Victoria. It is situated in the City of Westminster, South of St James' Park, it was bought by the Icelandic company BAUGUR in 2006. That would be the place to start asking about records.

In the 50's & '60s we had 4 pairs of these in the side pocket of our gas masks. Two pair clear and two pair tinted. We wore them while manning AFVs in Radfan, Trucial Oman etc.