Claudio

Hi Chris,

It almost look like a ribbon for:

Preu?isches Kriegserinnerungskreuz f?r Kombattanten mit Schwertern (DN 2.02.31.b)

(see picture).

Maybe the wearer didn't find any ribbon that was exactly like the Veteran cross' ribbon...

ciao,

Claudio

Hey Rick!

These are the scans from my brother who received them... Tomorrow I'll try to post bigger images of the scans and try to already decypher and translate some of this for me still difficult to read "S?tterlin-Schrift".... Man! The handwriting is definitely elegant and nice, but a pain in the a.. to read.

At least for sure I got also the date of birth and the names of his parents...

I already sent an email to the WAst in Berlin to found out if they have any details about his promotion as Generalmajor der WH during WW2.

Ciao,

Claudio

Part 2... right top side... this sheets are really big and don't fit into a normal A4 scan format! aaaargggh....

I replaced the previous scan with a bigger one... Now it should look better!

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Everybody!

I already received the reply from the Bavarian Archives... they told me that they sent me exceptionally copies of the Rangliste. For more details on Generalmajor H. Sturm and of his later career I should contact the WAst in Berlin.

The problem is that the Kb limitation to post pictures on this website doesn't allow me to show you larger images of the scans!

I'll try later to add some more scans...

Ciao,

Claudio

Thanks Rick for your kind words. Yes, such a documentation is rare... ask yourself a question: Did you ever keep an original invoice for more than 70 almost 80 years?

It would be interesting to know how much is the amount of that invoice translated in today's money... I got the feeling that already at that time, Godet was on the expensive side...

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi everybody!

The Ebay seller found Godet's original invoice and kindly sent it to me... incredible! Now also this bar has a name (Rud. Wendt)!!!

As you can see, the bar has been put together by Godet in the summer of 1930, still during the Weimar Republic period. Mr. Wendt provided Godet with all the medals and ribbons and Godet just had to made this very interesting bar.

Finally it all comes together...

Ciao,

Claudio

Just to keep this thread alive... here another recent aquisition... a Godet bar! I love these Godets... they are so immaculate and the ribbons are perfectly and cleanly folded.

? Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 1914, 2. Klasse am K?mpferband (OEK 1904)

? Weimarer Republik, Deutsche Ehrendenkm?nze des Weltkrieges mit Kampfabzeichen der Ehrenlegion (DN 2.02.17 a/b)

? Weimarer Republik, Kyffh?user-Kriegsdenkm?nze 1914-18 mit Frontk?mpferabzeichen, Schwertern am Band (DN 2.02.33 a/b)

? Weimarer Republik, Ehrenbund s?chsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer e. V. Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Ost- u. Westfrontk?mpfer, Sommekreuz (DN 2.02.24 c)

? Weimarer Republik, Ehrenbund s?chsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer e. V. Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Ost- u. Westfrontk?mpfer, Champagnekreuz (DN 2.02.24 d)

? Weimarer Republik, Ehrenbund s?chsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer e. V. Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Ost- u. Westfrontk?mpfer, Argonnenkreuz (DN 2.02.24 b)

? Weimarer Republik, Regiments-Erinnerungskreuz, mit der Spange des F?siliers-Regiment Nr. 39 (DN 2.02.21 a)

Enjoy the pictures...

Ciao,

Claudio

@ Rick and Glenn: what about Adalbert Flaccus? No traces of him in the Dienstalterliste?

Ciao,

Claudio

Claudio: Glenn found the Dienstaltersliste B of 1 May 1940:

Now that I have this wartime x.D. Liste, I will type it out and try to figure out who ALL the "invisible" fossilzied in ranks guys were. I have my own Wehrmacht 18 bar whose original owner may be among them...

Hi Ingo,

Check Dave's very impressive website with all German imperial orders under http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/saxecoburg.htm

Judging from the rank of this Junior office it must be a Knight's Cross 2nd Class with Swords of the Saxon-Ernestine House order (see also wikipedia.de http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/saxecoburg.htm ).

Here's a image of the cross taken from Dave's homepage. The other cross, if it's not evident for you, it's a Iron Cross 2nd class (1914).

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Daniel,

I personally met a couple of time Herr Autengruber and always was very kind and informative person. Of course he couldn't know everything some of us knew, because of knowledge acquired previously through personal time-consuming research or just by mere coincidence (like me, I must admit).

The only criticism I have toward the auction house (UBS Union Bank of Switzerland) is that the should have put bigger and more detailed pictures online and get back with more detailed information when I required by email.

Furthermore I am client of UBS as a bank account holder there... I am not quite happy how they conduct business lately (see blunder with real estate speculation in the USA, they almost went bankrupt.. .quite unbelievable for a Swiss major bank)... I also lost quite a lot of money because of their "products" I have invested in ....

Just my 2 cents.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Sascha!

Here's the catalogue description... funny that they mentioned in the description that "bei dem mit einiger Geduld die Identit?t des Tr?gers herausgefunden werden kann"...

Miniaturenkettchen mit 12 Auszeichnungsminiaturen, von rechts nach links: 1) Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914; 2) Schweden: Wasaorden, Ordenskreuz, Gold; 3) Preu?en: K?niglicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern; 4) Baden: Orden vom Z?hringer L?wen, Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern und Eichenlaub; 5) Braunschweig: Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse mit Bew?hrungsabzeichen; 6) Hohenzollern: F?rstlicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ehrenkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern; 7) Deutsches Reich: Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges 1914-1918 f?r Frontk?mpfer; 8) Bayern: Milit?r-Verdienstorden, Kreuz 4. Klasse (ohne Schwerter!); 9) Deutsches Reich: S?dwest-Afrika Denkm?nze f?r Nichtk?mpfer; 10) Preu?en: Offiziers-Dienstauszeichnung f?r 25 Jahre; 11) Preu?en: Centenarmedaille 1897; 12) Baden: Regierungsjubil?ums-Medaille 1902 in Bronze. An Nadeln.

Miniature chain with 12 miniatures, from right to left: 1) Iron Cross 2nd class 1914; 2) Sweden: Order of Wasa, order's cross, gold; 3) Prussia: Royal House Order of Hohenzollern, knight's cross with swords; 4) Baden: Order of the Zaehringen Lion, knight's cross 2nd class with swords and oak leaves; 5) Brunswick: War Merit Cross 2nd Class with reliability badge; 6) Hohenzollern: Princely House Order of Hohenzollern, Honour Cross 3rd class with swords; 7) German Reich: Hindenburg Cross 1914-1918 with swords; 8) Bavaria: Order for Military Merit, cross 4th class (without swords!); 9) German Reich: Southwest-Africa Medal for non-combattants; 10) Prussia: Officer's Long Service Decoration for 25 years; 11) Prussia: Centenary Medal 1897; 12) Baden: Jubilee Medal 1902 in Bronze. With pins. Condition: G.V.F.

(12 St?ck) ? II ? (EUR 310.-) = Verkauft f?r CHF 1'100.- Zuzugl. Komm. (about Eur 735.- + commission fees)

Interessantes Miniaturenkettchen, bei dem mit einiger Geduld die Identit?t des Tr?gers herausgefunden werden kann. Der Wasaorden k?nnte darauf hindeuten, dass der Inhaber, wohl ein badischer Staatsangeh?riger, nach 1918 in pers?nlichen Diensten von K?nigin Viktoria von Schweden, einer geboren Prinzessin von Baden, gestanden haben k?nnte.

Apropos Kube... More than once I bought from him stuff that was described as Zustand I, like for example a Reussiches Ehrenkreuz 3. Kl. mit Krone; the crown has clearly been replaced and resoldered (nachgel?tet)... and still he wrote to me that he would take it back from only exceptionnally... Zustand I (Mint) is for me like if the medals or orders in question are coming out straight from box as if were packed it yesterday or even today. Mint is mint... no further discussion or useless polemics are needed; it they put in a catalogue Zustand I it should be flawless and look brand new.

Ciao,

Claudio

Here is the medal bar in all its glory and in colour:

Hi Rick!

Argghh... Too bad that they manage to ruin the mini-chain! I will be very difficult to replace it.

Was the full sized medal bar being sold on Thies' past auction? I think to remember which bar was it... Was on that bar a real pre-1916 Gold Baden MKFVO-Ritter? It was a beauty and didn't even sell during the auction but after... I really regret not to have bought it.

Ciao,

Claudio

He sells only the images of the medals, but this is not mentioned in the seller's description, therefore potential Ebay buyers bid on his auctions thinking they are bidding on the real medal bar or order. This seller just "stole" the images of known auction houses like Hermann Historica. I am a bit surprised that HH is not doing anything to stop this.

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites,

I found it strange that nobody started a thread regarding the above-mentioned bar... That's quite a rack of very rare orders, especially considering the combinations with the Russian orders. Very likely it went to a major Russian collectionist, since the price went up considerably.

Before the auction started I tried to get more detailed pictures of the bar (obverse and reverse), but the response of UBS was that the photograph on the catalogue on line was the only one available... that's quite a lazy attitude, not to mention bad service, considering that the auction house earned a lot of money from this bar (about Eur 5'000.- only from the purchaser, not to mention the commission deducted from the consignee). For such pieces on on-line catalogues the auction house should at least show more detailed pictures, like Hermann Historica is slowly trying to do.

I just wanted to open a thread about it, because you rarely see such bars... not even museums in Germany have such bars on exihibition. However I was curious to see if the bar was being manipulated. As you can see the crown order with swords has been replaced (because according to the description the original had to be returned). That's why it would have been crucial to see the detail of the back and the detail of the orders individually, especially those in Gold! Would you buy a car without having seen and tried it? With the money this bar sold you can buy a pretty nice car...

Your comment and thoughts are most appreciated.

Ciao,

Claudio

Description of the bar:

No.: 398

Sch?tzwert/Estimate: CHF 10'000.- / Eur 6'200.- Verkauft/Sold: CHF 36'000.-/ Eur 25'000.- + Aufgeld/Commission

Grosse krause Frack-Ordensschnalle von Hugo Freiherrn von Stumm mit 11 Auszeichnungen: 1.-) Preussen: Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse 1870; 2) Preussen: Kronenorden, 3. Modell (mit "grosser" heraldischer preussischer Krone - ca. 1871-1918), Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Schwertern, Bronze vergoldet, Zentren Gold emailliert, die Schwerter festgel?tet, mit der R?ckseite nach vorne montiert; 3) Preussen: Kriegsdenkm?nze 1870/1871 f?r Kombattanten, mit Randpr?gung, vergoldet; 4) Preussen: Erinnerungskreuz f?r K?niggr?tz 1866, alte Spangenpr?gung, vergoldet; 5) Russland: Silberne Medaille f?r Khiva 1873, Silber; 6) Bayern: Milit?r-Verdienstkreuz des Milit?r-Verdienstordens, 1. Modell (1866-1905), Silber, Zentren Gold, emailliert; 7) Russland: Orden vom hl. Wladimir, Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Schwertern und Schleife, Gold emailliert, Emaillemalerei; 8) S?chsische Herzogt?mer: Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden, 2. Modell (1864-1935), Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern,1. Ausf?hrung mit sogen. "deutschen" (geraden) Parierstangen der Schwerter, Silber, Zentren Gold, emailliert; 9) Russland: Orden vom hl. Stanislaus, 2. Modell, 2. Ausgabe (ca. 1841-1917), Kreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern und Schleife, Gold emailliert; 10) Bayern: Verdienstorden vom hl. Michael, Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse, Gold emailliert; 11) Osmanisches Reich: Medjidjie-Orden, Dekoration 4. Klasse, Silber brillantiert und reperciert, Auflagen und Halbmondagraffe Gold emailliert, auf der R?ckseite osmanisch punziert, auf dem Band mit Rosette. An Nadel.

Group of 11 awarded to Hugo Freiherr von Stumm, mounted German civil style: 1) Prussia: Iron Cross 2nd class 1870; 2) Prussia: Order of the Crown, 3rd type (with "large" heraldic Prussian crown - ca. 1871-1918), cross 4th class with swords, bronze gilt, centres gold, the swords solded (not screwed), mounted with the reverse to the front side; 3) Prussia: War Commemorative Medal 1870/1871 for combattants, wording on the edge, gilt; 4) Prussia: Commemorative Cross for Koeniggraetz 1866, unofficial coinage, gilt; 5) Russia: Silver Medal for Khiva 1873, silver; 6) Bavaria: Cross for Military Merit of the Order for Military Merit, 1st type (1866-1905), silver, centres gold, enamelled; 7) Russsia: Order of St. Vladimir, cross 4th class with swords and bow, gold enamelled, enamel painting; 8) Saxon Duchies: Saxe-Ernestine House Order, 2nd type, (1864-1935), knight's cross with swords, 1. edition with so-called "German" (straight) parry rods of the swords, silver, centres gold, enamelled; 9) Russia: Order of St. Stanislas, 2nd type, 2nd edition (ca. 1841-1917), cross 3rd class with swords and bow, gold enamelled; 10) Bavarian: Order of Merit of St. Michael, knight's cross 2nd class, gold enamelled; 11) Ottoman Empire: Order of Medjidjie, decoration 4th class, silver brillant? and reperc?, application and suspension gold enamelled, on the reverse Ottoman hallmark, with rosette on ribbon. With pin.

RR ? (11 St?ck) ? I-II ? (EUR 6200.-)

Der preussische Kronenorden ist nach dem Tode des Beliehenen wohl zur?ckgegeben und sp?ter nicht fach- und sachgem?ss ersetzt worden. Die Medaille f?r Khiva an einer nicht-russischen Spange ist von allergr?sster Seltenheit. Bedeutende und aussagekr?ftige, in allen Teilen (bis auf den Kronenorden) original gen?hte und hervorragend erhaltene Ordenschnalle, die Auszeichnungen im Topzustand ohne Emaillesch?den. - Hugo Rudolf (seit 1888 Freiherr von) Stumm (1845-1910) stammt aus der bekannten saarl?ndischen Stahlindustriellen-Familie. Als Secondelieutenant im deutsch-franz?sischen Krieg 1870 ausgezeichnet (siehe Regimentsgeschichte des 1. Westf?lischen Husaren-Regiments Nr.8), liess er sich 1873 abkommandieren, um als Beobachter an dem ?usserst harten Feldzug des russischen Generals v. Kaufmann gegen das Khanat Khiva teilzunehmen. Nahm als Rittmeister seinen Abschied. Erbauer des Schlosses Ramholz (bei Schl?chtern in Hessen) mit bekanntem Park. Verfasser zweier mehrfach ?bersetzer Werke ?ber Turkestan mit hervorragenen Karten.

Hi,

The medal bar style, how the ribbon are folded without the bottom, it is quite typical South German (Bavarian) style... but apart from that it will be very tough, if not impossible to come up with a NCO's name, since there are no major orders which can confirm the identity of this, very likely, Feldwebel (or Vizefeldwebel). Strange because the Finnish order 3rd class was awarded to Junior officer... could have he been like a kind of Warrant officer, considering that he got the BMVK during WWI and the Finnish order just right after while the German troops helped fighting the reds?

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Daniel!

I wanted to keep it secret from the big dealers... Maybe Weitze will raise the price now...

I'd like to show a similar bar (tuxedo/civilian bar - also called in German Frackspange) of my brother's collection...

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Scott,

I have seen this bar on a German dealer's online catalogue and I was intreagued by it, too.

Nice Non-Combattant Anhalt bar; the cross with the Non-Combattant ribbon was sparely awarded.

Ciao,

Claudio

Who got finally the Venezuela medal bar? ...strange because I don't recall to have seen this group on Ebay... was it German Ebay, right?

Ciao,

Claudio

Many thanks Rick and Glenn for your kind and most appreciated additional information.

Now let's hope that the Kriegsarchiv in M?nchen will reply to my request... if I get their Rangliste, I will be able to confirm a lot of datas.

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites,

I was tempted to purchase this medal bar but unfortunately I wasn't able to get the documents, which were sold separately.

I couldn't find on internet no information about Generalmajor Hans Sturm. He served in WWI as Artillery officer. Very likely if I am lucky, I will get additional information from the Bayerisches Kriegsarchiv (Rangliste).

Here is the description of the medal bar:

? Preu?en, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern

? Bayern, Milit?rverdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern (OEK 412), Medallion S vg

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803/1), Hersteller G & S (Godet & Sohn)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, DA 1. Klasse f?r 25 Dienstjahre (OEK 3852)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, DA 3. Klasse f?r 12 Dienstjahre (OEK 3854)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Erinnerungsmedaille an den 01.10.38, Anschluss Sudetenland (OEK 3517)

? Bayern, bronzene Luitpold-Medaille (OEK 461)

Some medals have been detached from the medal bar... I guess, the previous owner thought to sell them one by one making more profit , but maybe he realized that it was a huge mistake, because of the pedigree of such a piece. The FEK is a Godet piece (quite common on General or Senior officers medal bars), and although some medals have been brutally ripped off the bar, it looks in very good conditions and very easy to restore. The Iron Cross 2nd class is of a really high class manufacture... too bad that it was so badly ruined when somebody attempted to take it off the bar (Why???? )

Additional information given on the auction's catalogue about the documents:

1904 Kgl. Bayerische Armee Patent als F?hnrich

? Leutnant im 2. Fu?artillerie-Regiment

1905 Verleihung der Luitpold-Medaille

25.12.1914 MVO 4. Klasse mit Schwertern

1916 Bef?rderung zum Hauptmann

1934 Frontk?mpfer-Ehrenzeichen

02.10.1936 Verleihung DA 1. u. 3. Klasse

23.01.1938 Ernennungsurkunde zum Oberst, OU Adolf Hitler u. GFM von Brauchitsch

1938 Anschluss-Erinnerungsmedaille Sudentenland

30.01.1941 KVK 2. Klasse mit Schwertern

30.07.1941 Anstellungsurkunde als Oberst, OU GFM von Brauchitsch

Furthermore during the auction were sold separately also the Schirmm?tze (General) and the tunic of Hans Sturm.

I would really appreciate if anybody could add some information about H. Sturm's career. Thank you very much in advance!

Ciao,

Claudio

For comparison a zoomed clasps' picture of the other bar.

Thanks Rick! Maybe your original medal bar's owner were buddies and knew eachother...

Here's a better pic of the clasps. As you can see the clasp "Hereroland" has slightly been damaged on the surface.

Ciao,

Claudio

@ Sascha: of course... it's a Ungarian WWI commemorative medal... I was to busy checking the other medals...

I'm posting the other medal bar... just for Sascha...

Yeah... that Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen bronce gilted... very strange... when I bid on it, the picture on Kube's catalogue, like the ones 20 years, was only black and wait... That's the positive for your German collectors, you can go to auctions and inspect personally such bars. I can't fly every time there's an auction to see such details, which are by the way for the advanced enthusiast in German Imperial medal quite important...

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Heiko,

Thanks for your comments... I noticed that the clasp Gross-Namaland looks quite the same like the one I have on this other medal bar; the third and especially the forth letter from the left (OS) looks to be placed not quite on the same line but rather a bit lower. The pattern of the lettering and the background of this clasp look all quite alike... the fire-gilt polishing on the higher surfaces it's still present, but not so much, maybe because it has been expose a bit more than the other bar to light and climatic agents.

I could almost say with 95% certainity that the Gross-Namaland clasp might look good. For the other clasp "Hereroland" I unfortunately can't compare with anything I have in my collection or I personally have seen and touched. Furthermore this bar is even more tightly fixed to the bar. Actually both clasps seem to be very well fixed to the bar, not like put in place in a second moment. But it's hard to tell...

Thanks anyway for your opinion... I hope that one day we could personally meet so that I can show you it personally... or maybe I have to hope in a sunny day, in order to take some better pictures with a natural and neutral light.

Ciao,

Claudio

Are you just guessing (on the clasps) or is it an educated judgement based on some founded visual evidences? That's what I like to know...

The clasps are very tightly fixed to the bar and don't want to ruin or destroy the bar in order to try how the clasps and theirs hooks look alike.

Ciao,

Claudio