Claudio

Hi Doc,

It's the Order of the crown of Italy...

ciao,

Claudio

Hi Brian!

The cross on the 3rd place is a Baden's Dienstauszeichnung (Long service award), 1st class for 15 years, 1913-18 (OEK 313). If it had been a Merit cross of the Z?hringer Lion, it would have been worn on 1st place as a proud Badener.

Ciao,

Claudio

P.S.: I have added a picture, taken from the website of the OMSA

The MVO4x should be ok; they were always made of Silver (see markings on the reverse either on the swords or on the Ls holding the suspension ring or on the rim of the lower cross arm). The only thing that varied materially speaking, is the cyphers in the medallion, pre-war and early WWI types had a Golden medallion and later or cheaper variants had it in Silver gilted.

I think that it's by today's standards, it's far too expensive to fake completely a MVO4. I do know that some "specialists" have already improved chipped crosses, repair the enamel, but it's quite impossible to reproduce a nice translucent vibrant blue enamel color. What you see very often is that the swords are taken off, in order to artificially increase the value of the MVO4, since the MVO without swords, the real ones, are much rarer than the MVO4x.

Again, from the picture is quite difficult to tell, but my gut's feeling says that this MVO4x is a good one... this particular class wansn't so rare and was frequently awarded also to Non-Bavarian officers (about 24'000 MVO4x have been awarded during WWI).

Ciao,

Claudio

From this bad photos, the front looks nicely constructed and the ribbons professionally folded... better pictures and a close up of the needle-pin system on the back would enable specialists and enthusiast collectors of medal bars like me to better assest this bar.

Ciao,

Claudio

As Rick said this decoration is as rare as hen's teeth... I would only buy it with a rock solid proof of origin and prefer to choose one piece made by Meybauer, with the typical pin back shape and marks. Anything else I would keep my hands off... I saw so many of these being offered, but of course this comment of mine is quite uneducated and I should learn more about it. Truth is there are no really good references or books to support your choice... the only possibility is to compare it with a original, text book piece, on which all collectors and enthusiast student of German Imperial orders can agree to be without any reasonable an authentic pin back tipe decoration being awarded during WWI.

Just my 2 cents...

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites,

On H?sken (Galerie d'histoire) online catalogue I found a completely similar bar, also construction and color of the fabric on the back, of my brother's bar. It comes with urkunden and a name: Baumeister Adolf Krauss.

Here's the description of the dealer's bar for sale with documents:

NACHLASS DES F?RSTLICHEN BAUMEISTERS ADOLF KRAUSS: Gro?e Ordensspange mit 4 Auszeichnungen: Kreuz f?r treue Dienste 1914 am Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer / Goldenes Verdienstkreuz des Orden des Ehrenkreuzes (Gold) / Silbernes Verdienstkreuz des Orden des Ehrenkreuzes / Erinnerungsmedaille an die silberne Hochzeit 1907.

Beiliegend die Verleihungsurkunden zum silbernen Ehrenkreuz 1901 mit eigh. Unterschrift F?rst "Georg", zum goldenen Ehrenkreuz 1903 mit eigh. Unterschrift F?rst "Georg", zur Erinnerungsmedaille an die silberne Hochzeit 1907 sowie Ernennungsurkunde zum "Hof-Maurermeister" 1870 und zum "F?rstlichen Baumeister" 1906 u.a. Urkunden gefaltet

Do you think that this combination unique is? I think so, also because the non combattant awards are extremely rare.

I'd really appreciate your comments on this.

Ciao,

Claudio

Now it makes all sense... the SEHO mit Schwertern am Ring is quite typical class being awarded by the duke - illegally (since the duchy didn't exist anymore) - in the 30ies... I couldn't distinguish the colors of the last ribbon on the first pictures. Very very nice ribbon and medal bars!

Thanks for showing us!

Ciao,

Nice stuff Mike! Especially the Bavarian bar with the rarely on medal bars found Bavarian Landwehr-DA... I am still looking for one bar like that! Congrats!

Ciao,

Claudio

@ Rick and David: what makes this research even more frustrating is the fact that the seller on ebay knew the family name of this officer, but he didn't want to tell me out of respect of the family's desire to remain discrete... He just told me that this in WWII staff officer was coming from a family with great military traditions whose many of their members they reached high ranks in the German or Imperial army.

I know, it doesn't help a lot, but I just wanted to share it, to show how ridiculously scared are some German families of their heritage and history legacy.

Ciao,

Claudio

This full size medal bar was the big brother of the previously shown ribbon bar... too bad I couldn't get it! Aaargghh.... It's also my favourite Ordensjuwelier... GODET!

Interesting thread...

In this ribbon bar of mine I see Belgian order at the end... and also some more other foreign orders as well. Still unidentified...

ciao,

Claudio

I never thought, it would go over USD 5'000.-... I was wrong, maybe I am also a bit responsible to have increase the final price, but on the other hand I am also happy not to have bought it for that price. It's interesting to see, that pieces which are really good but being listed on ebay with an already fair end price never sell and those bars which begin with USD 1.- or Euro 1.- finish to fetch very high prices... sometimes it gets too emotional and too greedy this frantic bidding on Ebay. One other thing I didn't like of this auction was that it was private.... maybe the price could have been raised artificially since all the bidder's name were hidden... who knows? It wouldn't be the first time...

Ciao,

Claudio

I also noticed that this group remained unsold after the Thies' auction... the starting price was also quite high (Eur 900.- + 23% auction fees + postage).

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites,

Lately I have been quite unactive on the forum, because I didn't have to report anything interesting from my side.

I am browsing on Ebay on a regularly basis, just to see what's on the market and to keep me up-to-date with the prices....

But these kind of things really makes me very upset. A guy tries to sell a whole group which was offered on the last Thies' auction of 2007 (see enclosure), splitting it in order to maximize his profit.

Here is the link of one the item on sale on German Ebay (click on the other articles of the same seller to view the other pieces of the same group)

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...A:IT&ih=001

I don't know yet, if I should bid on it... also because it doesn't look good on the monetary side for the average serious purchaser, military history enthusiast and focused collector.

Too bad, that I didn't even found being offered on the sale listing the original case where this complete group rested for so many years, surviving a World War, the cold war and many years of rampant global marketing on the net. It took just 8-9 months, after almost 65-70 years, for the group to be forever blown apart and finish very likely spread in different continents.

What a pity...

Ciao,

Claudio

Reverse:

Just to keep this thread alive... here another recent aquisition... a Godet bar! I love these Godets... they are so immaculate and the ribbons are perfectly and cleanly folded.

? Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 1914, 2. Klasse am K?mpferband (OEK 1904)

? Weimarer Republik, Deutsche Ehrendenkm?nze des Weltkrieges mit Kampfabzeichen der Ehrenlegion (DN 2.02.17 a/b)

? Weimarer Republik, Kyffh?user-Kriegsdenkm?nze 1914-18 mit Frontk?mpferabzeichen, Schwertern am Band (DN 2.02.33 a/b)

? Weimarer Republik, Ehrenbund s?chsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer e. V. Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Ost- u. Westfrontk?mpfer, Sommekreuz (DN 2.02.24 c)

? Weimarer Republik, Ehrenbund s?chsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer e. V. Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Ost- u. Westfrontk?mpfer, Champagnekreuz (DN 2.02.24 d)

? Weimarer Republik, Ehrenbund s?chsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer e. V. Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Ost- u. Westfrontk?mpfer, Argonnenkreuz (DN 2.02.24 b)

? Weimarer Republik, Regiments-Erinnerungskreuz, mit der Spange des F?siliers-Regiment Nr. 39 (DN 2.02.21 a)

Enjoy the pictures...

Ciao,

Claudio

Thanks for your nice comments...

Actually this bar was posted by a long time ago (last october), but it's nice to see that it gets so nice words of appreciation.

@Stogie: I don't think that it is reasearchable too, it's a bar of a NCO and there aren't any other orders or foreign decorations that would help to trace the eventual owner.

Ciao,

Claudio

@ Komtur: I don't think that the curators of the museum really have a lot of knowledge about German orders, hence the mistakes... it could be possible that the medals came from the same family who donated to the museum. Sometimes generations of soldiers of Swiss families served abroad.

Ciao,

Claudio

for service to the British Empire!!!

Spanish orders...

more L?gion d'honneur...

L?gion d'honneur...

Some Dutsch orders...

Some of the uniforms above mentioned... this are from left to right, a tunic of the Swiss serving the French monarchy before the revolution (1789), a tunic of the 3rd Infantry regiment (red/black) and two tunics of the Infantry Batallion of the republic of Valais (red/white), from the grenadiers company... Useless to say how rare this are. The Swiss were the only Napo's troops to be allowed to wear red coats in the whole French army!

Ciao,

Claudio

Here a portrait of a Swiss Pour le M?rite Tr?ger. I wouldn't be surprised to find a couple more.

Please do not hesitate to comment these pictures and contribute with additional photos and documentation of German orders being awarded to Swiss soldiers.

Ciao,

Claudio