Claudio

Dear forumites,

I just found this group being put on German house for sale. It's a group with historical relevance; the owner of this group was the commander of the Schlachtschiff SMS Schleswig-Holstein (wikipedia Deutschland http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Schleswig...tein_%281906%29 ), which fired the first shots of WWII on the Polish fortress on the Westerplatte.

Auction house's descriptions:

Nachlass des Admirals Gustav Kleikamp

Im September 1939 Kommandant der "Schleswig-Holstein", deren Sch?sse den 2. Weltkrieg er?ffneten. Zuvor u. a. in Spanien. - Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. Hersteller "20", neuwertig im Etui. - 6er Feldspange - 5er Ordensspange im "Godet"-Etui, neuwertig - Kaiserlicher Marinedolch mit Namensgravur (Dolch im schlechten Zustand) - Urkunde zum Deutschen Kreuz in Gold. Oktober 1944 als Vizeadmiral, OU D?nitz - Urkunde Spange EK 1. Klasse am 2.10.1939, OU Albrecht - Urkunde Spange EK 2. Klasse am 17.9.1939, OU Albrecht - Urkunde Memellandmedaille - Urkunde Flottenkriegsabzeichen als Konteradmiral "Schleswig-Holstein" - Urkunde Dienstauszeichnung 1. Klasse 1938 - Urkunde Dienstauszeichnung 2. Klasse 1936 - Urkunde Annahme des Spanischen Marineverdienstkreuzes - Urkundenheft DRL-Sportabzeichen, Goldstufe, Foto - Bef?rderungsurkunde zum Kapit?n zur See, 1938, Faks. Hitler, OU Raeder - Bef?rderungsurkunde zum Konteradmiral,1942, Faks. Hitler, OU Raeder. Alle Urkunden im ungeknickten, neuwertigem Zustand. Historisch sehr interessante Gruppe.

Limitpreis: 11.500 ?

Vizeadmiral Gustav Kleikamp

Born: 08 March 1896 in Fiddichow, Oder

Died: 13 September 1952 in M?lheim, Ruhr

Promotions:

F?hnrich zur See (03 Apr 1914); Leutnant zur See (18 Sep 1915); Oberleutnant zur See (07 Jan 1920); Kapit?nleutnant (01 Feb 1925); Korvettenkapit?n (01 Oct 1932); Fregattenkapit?n (01 Oct 1936); Kapit?n zur See (01 Apr 1938); Konteradmiral (01 Apr 1942); Vizeadmiral (01 Oct 1943)

Career:

Entered the Navy as a Seekadett at Basic-Training and On Board the Heavy Cruiser ?Vineta? (01 Apr 1913-31 Mar 1914)

Naval-School M?rwik (01 Apr 1914-01 Aug 1914)

Radio-Officer on the Heavy Cruiser ?Derfflinger? (02 Aug 1914-17 Mar 1918)

Training at the Submarine-School and Watch-Officer on ?U 9? (18 Mar 1918-00 Oct 1918)

Administration-Officer with the I. Submarine-Cruiser-Flotilla (00 Oct 1918-31 Dec 1918)

With the II. Naval-Brigade (01 Jan 1919-30 Jun 1920)

Placed to the Disposal of the Commander of Sea Forces of the North Sea (01 Jul 1920-30 Sep 1920)

Radio and Watch Officer on the Cruiser ?Hamburg? (01 Oct 1920-03 Dec 1921)

Radio and Watch Officer on the Liner ?Braunschweig? (04 Dec 1921-30 Sep 1922)

Commandant of the Minesweeper ?M 133? (01 Oct 1922-30 Sep 1923)

Instructor at the Naval Signals School (01 Oct 1923-31 Mar 1925)

Instructor at the Torpedo and Signals School (01 Apr 1925-21 Sep 1926)

Roll-Officer on the Liner ?Hannover? (24 Sep 1926-01 Mar 1927)

Roll-Officer on the Liner ?Schlesien? (02 Mar 1927-27 Sep 1928)

Training-Officer on the Cruiser ?Emden? (28 Sep 1928-05 Jan 1930)

Placed to the Disposal of the Chief of the Naval-Station of the North Sea (06 Jan 1930-10 Feb 1930)

Leader of the Signals-Medium-Test-Institute (11 Feb 1930-25 Sep 1932)

Naval-Liaison-Officer to Military-District-Command I, K?nigsberg (04 Oct 1932-22 Jul 1933)

4th Admiral-Staff-Officer with Fleet Command (23 Jul 1933-24 Sep 1935)

First Officer on the Liner ?Schleswig-Holstein? (26 Sep 1935-03 May 1937)

Leader of Group Technical Signals Affairs, OKM (01 Jun 1937-31 Mar 1938)

Chief of the Department Technical Signals Affairs, OKM (01 Apr 1938-23 Apr 1939)

Commandant of the Liner ?Schleswig-Holstein? (26 Apr 1939-28 Aug 1940)

At the same time, Leader of Warship-Group 7 (Zielh?fen Nyborg-Kors?r) with Operation ?Weser?bung? (Apr 1940)

Chief of Sea-Command-Office Calais (29 Aug 1940-27 Oct 1940)

At the same time Designated Chief of Transport-Flotilla ?C? with Operation ?Seel?we? (29 Aug 1940-10 Dec 1940)

Placed to the Disposal of the Commander-in-Chief of the Kriegsmarine (28 Oct 1940-30 Dec 1940)

Chief of the Military Office-Group, Head-Office Warship-Construction, OKM (31 Dec 1940-21 Feb 1943)

Commanding Admiral in the Netherlands (04 Mar 1943-31 Dec 1944)

Placed to the Disposal of the Commander-in-Chief of Naval-Group-Command North (01 Jan 1945-14 Mar 1945)

Commanding Admiral Deutsche Bucht (15 Mar 1945-07 May 1945)

In Captivity (07 May 1945-18 Apr 1947)

Released (18 Apr 1947)

Decorations & Awards:

- Deutsches Kreuz in Gold: am 14.10.1944 als Vizeadmiral und Kommandierender Admiral in den Niederlanden

- 1914 EK I

- 1914 EK II

- Hamburgisches Hanseatenkreuz

- Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer

- Wehrmacht-Dienstauszeichnung IV. bis I. Klasse

- Medaille zur Erinnerung an die Heimkehr des Memellandes

- Spange zum EK I

- Spange zum EK II

There are also some pictures for sale of this officer on another weblink... maybe the lucky buyer could re-unite this historical group!

http://www.historical-media.com/id102.htm

A group like this should be bought by a Museum in my opinion... that would be ideal!

Ciao,

Claudio

Thanks Rick, for bringing up again this matter... The only way maybe to find which one of the two guys is the real original owner of the bar would be to find a picture with name on it. Thanks anyway!

Hi Razputin,

I am currently working in Stockholm since October last year... I should get busy in joining maybe a collectors' community here in Sweden. I know that there're quite a few of them here and also a good dealer (Peter von Lukacs).

Ciao,

Claudio

It isn't quite warm in Stockholm, too but every day that passes has more daylight... that's great!

Hi Wild Card!

It's MAY.

Ciao,

Claudio

I post the picture of the admiral, before it will be deleted on Ebay...

Claudio

Hi Sascha,

To have a good feeling it's good, but not enough... I would really like to know from guys like Heiko, what he thinks of the Colonial clasps and from other ones (especially on the German forums) if the BMVO is the real deal... from the pictures it's pratically impossible to give an educated opinion, just like you said, feel good about it! And spend more than 2 grants just because a feeling (like a did in the past, unfortunately!) it's not sufficent. I'd rather wait for a text book Godet or one with a plausible combination of orders which could lead to identify the owner.

Ciao,

Claudio

The back shows that it's not quite the typical "flat bottom", which I hate and I'd never buy if it's not a pure Bavarian bar with either some provenance documents to prove it or very rare orders on it. It looks rather like a quite messy bar ribbon's construction. I would think it's okay if it was a typical bar made in the early 20ies, but this bar was, if original, made not before 1934-35!

Here's a detail of the BMVO.... difficult to see if it's a real GOLD piece or just a silver gilted... if it's the silver gilt one I would keep my hands off it. But why hasn't the seller described this very important detail?

My first question would be whether the Bavarian MVO 3rd class is real. If that's an awarded original, I would be hard-pressed to imagine anyone putting together a fake bar with one, as they are extremely hard to come by. Been looking to get one myself....

Tim

That was also my exact thought... I would love to see this bar in "flesh"! Any comments on the Colonial bars? Are they real? I am really not a specialist in this field... Furthermore I have to say that, although the pictures are big enough, there quite blurry and it's difficult to distinguish the fine details of the single orders and medals.

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites,

I saw this cross on a German auction online webpage:

http://s206094890.online.de/shop/catalog/p...955181c32c8782f

Strelitz Steckkreuz 1. Klasse "F?r Tapferkeit" mit Herst. Godet 5,000.00 EUR

Mecklenburg-Strelitz Steckkreuz 1. Klasse "F?r Tapferkeit", Die Auszeichnung der 1. Klasse wurde nur an 21 Pers?nlichkeiten verliehen (z.B. Friedrich Franz)! Hersteller Godet, Zust. I-II

I didn't know that such pieces were so valuable... I would have bought the one Winkler had for sale!!!

Ciao,

Claudio

Thanks Franken for your info. I didn't know that the Leser's MVK1.Kl. with Golden center medallion was constructed in one piece... I looked it up what Sammlerchris posted, but I couldn't find it.

Could you find it for me and post it here?

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Ed,

If it's a real Gold center piece, like also the MVO, it has to have all the parts in Gold, cypher and lettering on the disk... I wouldn't settle for less... only my 2 cents...

Ciao,

Claudio

I forgot to say that, for the early types up to 1916, it's quite evident the multi-pieces construction of the center medallion...

I would love to adquire a medal bar with a REAL MVK 1. Kl. If anybody knows somebody selling it, please let me know!!!

I also know a very big Bavarian collector and part-time dealer and also museum curator that sold me several of these pieces that he upgraded himself in his atelier... I saw the atelier... He never told me that the pieces he sold me were upgraded, though! That's why his prices were so good... no wonder all his pieces looked like brand new. He's quite an artist also with enamel repairs... :-((((((

Of course in his own collection he kept only the good ones and he's not going to sell them...

My brother told me that in order to be a good collector you must be also very egoist... that's why my brother doesn't have a good collection... maybe I am more selfish than he's or maybe I only spend more...

Ciao,

Claudio

I had to remove the pictures I posted, because I took them without permission from another forum. MEA CULPA! My idea was to educate people on the many fakes and the few originals in circulation.

My most sincere excuses to those who felt offended by using and making public their pictures in this thread!

I had to remove the pictures I posted, because I took them without permission from another forum. MEA CULPA! My idea was to educate people on the many fakes and the few originals in circulation.

My most sincere excuses to those who felt offended by using and making public their pictures in this thread!

I had to remove the pictures I posted, because I took them without permission from another forum. MEA CULPA! My idea was to educate people on the many fakes and the few originals in circulation.

My most sincere excuses to those who felt offended by using and making public their pictures in this thread!

Hi Alec,

Here more info from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Combat_Clasp.

If you want to have more information, I would recommend you to buy Tony Durante's book (http://www.papjay.com/newrelease.html)

Here a debate on a German forum about the above-mentioned book:

http://www.sammlergemeinschaft-deutscherau...?threadid=14647

Close Combat Clasp

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Close Combat Clasp (German: Nahkampfspange) is a German military award instituted on November 25, 1942 for achievement in hand to hand fighting in close quarters. The Close Combat Clasp was worn above the upper left uniform pocket. The badge was die-cast and made of either Tombac or Zinc, with a slightly curved and hand centerpiece consisting of the national emblem (a German Eagle clutching the swastika) surmounting a crossed bayonet and hand grenade.

The award was bestowed in three classes.

For 15 days of combat a Bronze Class was awarded.

For 30 days of combat a Silver Class was awarded.

For 50 days of combat a Gold Class was awarded.

An exemption was made if the soldier was wounded in battle, then the criteria was reduced to 10, 20 and 40 days.

The Gold Close Combat Clasp was often regarded in higher esteem than the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross by the German infantry. Of the roughly 18 ? 20 Million soldiers of the German Wehrmacht 36,400 received the Bronze Class, 9500 the Silver Class and 633 the Gold Class.

Florian Berger (2004), Ritterkreuztr?ger mit Nahkampfspange in Gold, ISBN 3-9501307-3-X

Manfred D?rr, Die Tr?ger der Nahkampfspange in Gold, Heer-Luftwaffe-Waffen-SS 1943 - 1945 ISBN 3-7648-2585-5

Thomas M. Durante (2007), The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II, ISBN 978-90-81230-11-7

Claudio has a very nice ribbon bar from a Sachsen-Weimar Prince with 3 Mini Stars of Thuringian States Grand crosses on it.

Here's the ribbon bar mentioned by Daniel:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2298...org+von+Sachsen

Ciao,

Claudio

Thank you, Paul, for the interesting links.

Interesting the friendly argument between Rick and Werner; at the end it seems that both agreed that the more likely original owner was an ex III. Seebatallion officer an later Oberst in Wehrmacht: Hugo Oster.

Does anyone have the details of his career after WWI and if he was commanding a unit during WWII?

Ciao,

Claudio

Stuart told me about Rick's research, but I couldn't find on the forum. But it looks quite good: it has been narrowed down to only 2 possible officers... that's great! But no cigar, yet... I have to hope to find one day the picture of the officer with this medal bar.

@ Rick: Are there any pictures of Konteradmiral zS zV Wilhelm "Vater" Rhein on the Admirals' Biographies books??

That last Bavarian jubilee medal is really very weird to me...

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear collectors & friends,

This medal bar was my last purchase for 2007. Actually I didn't receive yet, because the FedEx shipment has been blocked at the airport by the customs authorities... the usual pain in the a..!!! Hopefully I will get my dirty pawns on it at the beginning of next week.

The bar is a genuine and typical Godet product; I love these bars... I couldn't resist not to purchase it!

Although the combination of orders and medals on this bar seems quite uncommon, I don't think it would be possible to identify the original bar's owner. Too bad...

Here is the detailled description of the decorations:

? Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909)

? Preussen, Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Kreuz der Ritter mit Schwertern

(OEK 1789), Silber vergoldet, mit Punzierung 938

? Oldenburg, Friedrich August-Kreuz 2. Klasse am K?mpferband mit Spange ?vor dem Feinde? (OEK 1563)

? Hamburg, Hanseatenkreuz (OEK 688)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803)

? Weimarer Republik, Schlesisches Bew?hrungsabzeichen, sog. Schlesischer Adler 2. Stufe, 1919-1921 (OEK 3303)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH-Dienstauszeichnung f?r 25 Jahre, Kreuz (OEK 3852)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH-Dienstauszeichnung f?r 12 Jahre, Medaille (OEK 3854

? Bayern, Goldene Hochzeits-Erinnerungsm?nze, 1921-1935, E (OEK 552)

To me it looks, from the combination of this decorations, that the officer served in the Kriegsmarine.

I would gladly read your comments or thoughts on this bar!

Ciao,

Claudio

5. BM4XmKr (no idea)

6. WM3 (no idea)

The BM4XmKr is the Bayrischer Milit?rverdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern (7th place order on his bar) and the the WM3 is the W?rttemberg'scher Milit?rverdienstorden (2nd place on his bar). Rommel also got the WM3.

Ciao,

Claudio

...with the paranoia going on regarding MVKs, I would like to let you inspect my bar... I hope that it's a good MVK2KrX!

Any comments are greatly appreciated!

Ciao,

Claudio

@ ccj: it's the Franz Josef Orden (Kaiserreich ?sterreich-Ungarn)...

take care,

Claudio