Claudio

Here's a shot of the reverse of my bar: it screams all the way "Navy Bar" to me!

Ciao,

Claudio

yeah-but what are the odds of someone else having that combo with no LS medals? 1:1000?

I think the odds are much less than 1:1000! I don't think that there were more than 50 officers wearing the Cross of Liberty 3rd Class 1918 and the Hanseatenkreuz of Hamburg (50'000 awards given)...

ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites,

I just wanted to share a picture I found on Ebay (not bought yet)... it looks like he's wearing a bar like one I own, with the difference that it's missing the last Bulgarian WWI commemorative medal... The bar might have updated later with the addition of the Bulgarian medal... Too bad for 2 things: the ribbons are folded differently and there is no name of that officer on the picture.

I am just posting it out of sheer curiosity...

ciao,

Claudio

Feldspange...

The medal bar just arrived in the mail... It just a great bar! I would like to share the pictures...

Rick,

I think you're right... it might be a Godet: I am not 100% sure because of the bad quality picture I have got, but it looks very much like a Godet (color of the fabric on the back and needle system).

Ciao,

Claudio

@ webr55: the color of the back of the ribbon bar is a neutral grey. I will post some better pictures when I will have received the bars.

I don't see any problems that the wearer didn't choose to wear some of his Foreign decorations. That happened quite often. Maybe he chosed to wear only the war time and the WWI allied states of the German Reich decorations. That makes sense to me. If he got the commander cross of the Order of the Italian crown (see crown device, which normally should have rather been a rosette), he had to wear it around the neck. Maybe he got his Swedish order during his time fighting in the Baltic see with the Freikorps (see Baltenkreuz) or maybe even later as he was at the HQ in Berlin. Usually high ranking officers in such positions (Headquarters, Liason-officers, etc.) got easily such Foreign orders during visits of a prominent Foreign ruler, politician or military personality without any real purpose or merit.

These are of course speculation; without any documents it's difficult to tell for sure. I will be able to tell more when I will have both bars in my "pawns".

Ciao,

Claudio

... and here the commander cross of the order of the Italian crown.

Ciao,

Claudio

As I mentioned in my post earlier, it's a Swedish Royal order of the swords, very likely a knight cross.

Ciao,

Claudio

@ webr55: I totally agree with also on the Baltenkreuz. As a side note; there was no first and second class (pinback or medal with ribbon) for the Baltenkreuz like the Iron Cross. It was just a semi-official award of the Weimar Republic time. I have seen some soldiers to wear the Baltenkreuz as a pinback on the pocket and also on the ribbon or medal bar. That was wrong.

Ciao,

Claudio

I forgot also to mention that the Hindenburg cross is marked G S (Godet & Sohn) and the bar was put together by a dealer in Berlin where all the High ranking officers were stationed as being the capital and center of all Headquarters. Therefore I think that this officer could have been at least a Major (Fregattenk?pitan) if not even a General or Admiral...

The medal bar was put together logically before the ribbon, notice the absence of the Anschluss-Medaille for instance. So I believe that the bar has been purchased around 35 and the ribbon bar after the Anschluss 38-39 maybe even later and the DA have been consequently being update from 18 to 25 years... The seller informed me that both ribbon and medal bar came from the same family (Erben)... I don't know how much we should trust such statements, but for me it's an additional proof that the medal and ribbon bars could have been of the same original "Tr?ger"...

Ciao,

Claudio

Here a detailed photo of the BMVO 4. Kl.. Due to the delicate tranparent blue email and the Golden Letter "L" with the outlined crown in the center of the medallion I suggest it might be a Jakob Leser... what do you think?

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites,

I'd like to introduce my latest purchase. Actually I have still to wait for the bars to arrive, but I can't wait to post the pictures of the seller.

Although from the medal bar it's quite clear that it can't be researched, the ribbon bar gives already more clues about the probable original wearer of these two bars.

Here the description of the medal bar:

? Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1904)

? Bayern, Milit?r-Verdienstorden, 1866-1921, Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Schwertern (OEK 410), Medallion Gold, very likely a Jakob Leser Piece...

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803/1)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH-DA 2. Stufe, 18 Jahre (OEK 3853)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH-DA 4. Stufe, 4 Jahre (OEK 3855)

? ?sterreich 1. Republik, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

? Ungarn, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

Like Rick L. always says... please look always at the back... As you can see it's black and has the taylor/dealer's tag (J. Reimann, Berlin), which I have also encountered on previous bars, but a bit less common than the famous exclusive Orden & Ehrenzeichen Dealer and Juweller Godet.

The ribbon bar has on it:

- EK 2. Kl. 1914

- BMVO 4. mit X

- Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer

- 1. Republik ?sterreich, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

- Baltenkreuz (very interesting)

- DA 1. Stufe f. 25 Jahre

- DA 3. Stufe f. 12 Jahre

- Medaille zur Erinnerung an den Anschluss Oesterreichs

- Ungarn, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

- Bulgarien, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

- Italien, Kronen Orden (Ordine della corona italiana)

- Sweden, Order of the swords

Because of the Black backing, the Baltenkreuz and the Swedish Order of the swords I am inclined to think that the wearer could have been an senior officer in the Kriegsmarine. Strange the Bavarian MVO, but who knows, maybe going through the books about the Admir?le during WWII it could be possible to come up with the name... that would be very cool!

Thank you already in advance for your most appreciated inputs.

Ciao,

Claudio

Sorry Rick I misread your thread... but in order to make it up to you I think I have what you were looking for: a Saxon double Imperial/Third Reich long service awards.

Ciao,

Claudio

A Saxon ribbon bar also with its little brother (Knopflochschnalle)...

Ciao,

Claudio

My Godet's case... looks like a pre 1918 type!

Ciao,

Claudio

Very nice bar indeed... it looks even better now!

@ redcross: I don't know it by heart but the number of awarded 1st class decorations (Stickpin type of decoration) was well under 100!

Ciao,

Claudio

Wasn't it also used, especially in Saxony, to have decorations (orders) with the swords pointing downwards in order to indicate that their country has lost a war?? But I also tend to agree that these were mistakes which occured quite often!

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Everybody,

This is my Offizierskreuz of the Griffin Order... it should be a Godet cross. Eur 800.- is about today's value of a such cross in such conditions and in its issue case.

Ciao,

Claudio

...then it should be this one!

Ciao,

Claudio

@ Haynau: it should be the "Jubil?umsmedaille 1908 f?r Ausl?nder

Silberne Internationale Inhaber - Jubil?umsmedaille 1908 f?r die Offiziere der ausl?ndischen Regimenter, deren Inhaber Kaiser Franz Joseph I. war." I took the liberty to take an image from a Austrian dealer's website you surely know.

Ciao,

Claudio

@ Chris: as I told in my posting, I got this information from a collector. I don't know what were his sources of information, but I suppose he just gathered all this information bit by bit through the years also from other collectors. In Germany there are lots of Bayern-Collectors. I am sure you know a couple as well, since you live in Germany.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Noor,

Here are the numbers which were given to me by a friend of mine:

Milit?rverdienstorden, Gro?kreuz mit Krone und Schwertern: 1

Milit?rverdienstorden, Gro?kreuz 4

Milit?rverdienstorden, Gro?kreuz mit Schwertern: 66

Milit?rverdienstorden, 1. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern 2

Milit?rverdienstorden, 1. Klasse: 3

Milit?rverdienstorden, 1. Klasse mit Schwertern: 103

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse Stern mit Krone Schwertern: 2

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse Stern: 4

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse Stern mit Schwertern: 223

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse: 7

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse mit Schwerter: 304

Milit?rverdienstorden, Offizierkreuz: 7

Milit?rverdienstorden, Offizierkreuz mit Schwertern: 180

Milit?rverdienstorden, 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 450

Milit?rverdienstorden, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 750

Milit?rverdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 3?000

Milit?rverdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 24?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 175

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 700

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 3?800

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 15?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 73?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 290?000

Maybe, because of the growing knowledge on these orders, some of these figures can be corrected by some enthustiast researcher who might have some more precise data on it.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the details about Oberstabsarzt Kayser!

Is he however the real owner of these bars? Apparently he was in the army without any interruptions from 1897 til the end of WWI (1918 at earliest, maybe he was discharged from duty a bit later). Is it really possible that he didn't get the DA-XXV? I thought that service during the war counted double... It would be also great to know how he got the SW-Denkm?nze and in which capacity.

Ciao,

Claudio