Claudio

@ Christophe, Doc and Paul: I just used the programm Word to format my files. The easiest and most common way.

@ Dan: I already showed many of my bars on the forum. That's not point. If also my collection get lost, sold or even worse stolern at least the research and data on them will be saved on a ever lasting book. Mind you... I don't want just my pieces to go on the book, but all the most interesting and researched (named) bars of all collectors.

Ciao,

Claudio

Second page of the same file (see research and additional pictures).

I already made a detailed catalogue of my medal bars (see below example of a file), in order to prevent that data and groups could be lost forever through theft, individual pieces sale of a same group, fire or any other kind of natural desaster.

Here is an example how I stored on my computer my data. Thank to this filing system it would be easy to put all the necessary data and pictures together to make an illustrated book.

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear Forumites,

Since I noticed that lately many collections with great groups and medal bars were stolen and very likely these will be taken apart and hence destroyed to sell medals individually on the market, I thought that it would be a great idea to make a book of the most precious or interesting named groups or medal bars. In this case all the data will survive at least on paper (book).

What do you think? I thought that these groups and medal bars could be put together in the format used by Frank Heukemes and his serie about III. Reich's medals and badges... maybe in three different books: Imperial (different states), Weimar Era (Freikorps, Veteran's associations) and III. Reich. That would be a serie which would tell stories of different soldiers or people through the orders, medals and their urkunden.

Ciao,

Claudio

Here is the reverse of the bars; as you can see this is the usual bar system used late in the war with the interchangable metal pieces. It looks as on the back these metal pieces have never been touched since assembly... but I could be wrong. I really don't like the combination of the longest bar.

Please let me hear your most appreciated comments.

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear forumites:

Here I am showing you two ribbon bars which were bought recently by my brother Marco. The longest bar shows a pretty strange combination (see twice the same red cross/volkspfelge ribbon). What do you think?

Ciao,

Claudio

P.S.: The longest ribbon bar has been placed upside down... sorry!

Heiko,

When I look at your medal bars, it hurts me too much to see how a great collection could vanish so quickly.

I really wish with all my heart that you will get your bars back and that the thief/ves will be taken!

I don't think (I don't even want to consider that) that the thieves will be so stupid to take apart the bars. Nowadays such bars, especially the named ones, are a lot more valuable than the single orders & medals added together.

Ciao,

Claudio

I think that Thies is doing a very honourable thing! Way to go...

I eagerly wait for the moment that I will unite my Jantzen's medal bar with the 2 ribbon bars!

Ciao,

Claudio

Heiko!

These are terrible news...

It looks like the thief or thieves knew your collection well and also were watching your movements.

When I hear these stories, it makes me wonder... It would be recommendable that collectors would better not show their desirable and highly valuable items on such forums. Internet is so anonymous and yet so easy to get very interesting informations about collections and their locations.

No insurance company is really interested in insuring such collections if kept at home and their value very high. Furthermore you need to keep an inventory of every piece, just in case, better if all the data is stored on a CD or another computer, not at home near the collection (it might be stolen, too!!! like in your case). Of course know it's easy to say it!

Of course we (collector community) will keep the eyes open in case some of your bars will come up in the market, but I am quite sure, since these are quite easely identifiable bars, that you won't see them soon. It looks like a commissioned robbery... somebody that wanted badly your collection. He will keep himself very quiet...

What to say... we are really living in quite dangerous times: the opening of the borders (Schengen) makes the task easier for those criminals who wants to disappear and take with them such valuable things to another country. Maybe your bars are already very far away from Germany!

A remember vividly some of your items, but I would better for you to propagate the images of your stolen bars on this or other forums.

Best luck in getting back safely your bars!!!

Ciao,

Claudio

Is that the case of a "Verdienstkreuz f?r Frauen und Jungfrauen, 1871"?

Hi Sascha!

Good memory... Yes, I remember it.

Here is the image and price of the miniature chain.

I was very tempted... but I focused on the medal bars.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Brian,

I find great that you're able to share your family's story. I would be also very proud of such ancestors. I do only have few family members who participated to different wars; the maternal grand father joined the Foreign Legion (Civil war in Indochine after WWII) and another distant swiss relative and double national who fought against the Japanese in WWII for the USA. Fortunately enough Switzerland didn't have to fight for its indipendence but I am sure that we would have put up a fierce fight in both world wars. All males in my family did their bit and served in the army.

Any piece I acquire, especially medal bars that comes with a name, is filed on my computer with all the data. In case one day I am forced to sell my bars, the new owner will get the bar with the data on it.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Stogieman!

I am sorry too... I was taken away a bit from your generalized comment on collectors labeled as being hypocritical. That's why I was so mad. Forget my comments... it's very sad to a have a mud fight among us collectors. We should unite and not fight each other... although hypothetically every collector is a potential competitor.

I don't think that we need to defend the auctioneers... they already make enough money and, in the past I bought so many fakes.... what about that is that not criminal???

I think Thies is honest and his auctions are the best (and most expensive, also commission fees are quite high) on the market for Imperial stuff, because he has the right connections all over the world. But it's just his way to earn money. So I don't think he cares much about splitting groups, like all other auctioneers or dealers... tell me one name in this business that never split a group!

Ciao,

Claudio

What about the fact that many auctioneers during all these years have in more occasion tried to sell me fakes or their description on the catalogues let very much to be desired? I can only tell you all: all auction houses I have been dealing with, they tried to screw me at least once. There is no expeception among them: all of them made mistakes maybe not willingly knowing or purposedly described their items wrongly (see thread Kube and Reussisches REK 3 Kr X) to sell them better. How could an auctioneer in all his good faith describe a REK3 Kr X with a replaced crown as being in mint conditions / Zustand I ???. Is this not also kind of "out of line" or even "illegal"? I would say that is criminal to me. For me is like to play with the fact that they established a good relationship with a specific client and when the client begins to trust him, then mostly happens that they sell you a blatant fake. Never buy just because you think you can trust somebody. Actually you can't trust nobody in this field... Imperial or Third Reich! Beware!!!

Claudio

I don't know WC, We've all been at this for a long time. To me, it's a dichotomy of positions to on one hand imply that Theis is an idiot, unscrupulous, immoral when on the other hand we are guilty of crime(s) as well.

We're getting into a difficult area here. Who has the moral higher ground? The person who refuses to do anything that they feel is immoral, or illegal; or is it the person who performs the immoral and/or illegal act with the intent of correcting someone else's failing?

Do two wrongs now make a right? Does the moral obligation that (most) of us feel preclude our judgement of right and wrong?

My personal feelings are irrelevent, everyone knows the time, money and effort (as well as frustration) I've gone through to reunite broken groups. But where do we draw the line? The lesser of evil? For if evil is justified in the pursuit of a higher goal, than instead of discussing bid collusion publicly we should be discussing how we are going to steal everything back from all the scattered owners, auction houses, museums and countries for the express purpous of reuniting this history, this collection back to where it was intended to be by the original owner. Where do we draw the line? The little wrong is right?

I am (almost) as disgusted over this as I am positive you are. I looked back through all the catalogues this AM... I thought about the hours of discussion the League of Two Rickies? have had over this and the sad number of times it has happened in the past year. Makes me want to walk away while I still can.

But I simply cannot sit on the side and not comment on what I think is an illegal action on the part of some of our fellow collectors. I cannot tell you how many times I have bitten my tongue over these types of posts. After all, not saying it's wrong is the same as saying it's right.

I sit on the side line and I watch the anger and frustration in my friends and fellow collectors... I watch the scheming and under the table dealings and in my opinion, this makes us just as wrong as the folks who ordered it to be broken up in the first place.

Hi Paul,

That's a shame that we (collectors) couldn't find an agreement and that as usual there is a lot of polemics.

I don't think that I am going to spend more than 700-800 USD dollars to buy a whole group of ribbon bars in order to get the two small halfs ribbon bars to complete my Jantzen's medal bar.

At the end nobody wins... ehm... wrong! Herr Thies will surely make a good profit out of it! Clever... good for him! Next life I would like to become auctioneer like him... you can handle prestigious orders and medals without having to buy them! Who knows maybe he collects, too! Almost all dealers and auctioneer are collectors and some of the forums members are dealers/collectors at the same time. These latter ones should better stay silent when such polemics arise due to a dispute on who should buy what, because to me these people are the most hypocritical. On one side they want to be the moralist, and on the other hand they buy pieces to resell to make a profit. That's my humble opinion. Please don't get it wrong: I don't want to get anybody feelings hurt. It's just the way I think. Now you can also ban me from this site.

Just for your information, in all the years I collected (more than 20) I never made any profit out my collection... I just collected for the fun of it. Unfortunately nowadays it seems that all what is important is money; only those who have plenty of it can collect and do whatever they want. Fortunately I am not poor and I am still single... so I am your potential competitor!

Ciao,

Claudio

I re-edited my post, because I want to avoid any polemics. After all this should be our hobby and I feel incredible that people have so much time to waste to make such polemics.

@ Stogieman: I am usually not so sensitive to critics, but in your case is not the first time that you attack me directly or indirectly, sometimes allowing yourself to give bad comment on some pieces I own. I always kept my mouth shot and I will, because I am here on this forum to have "a good time", since it's my free time I spend on it. If everytime I say something I have to fear that somebody is labelling me as hypocritical, than it's better that I leave this forum. That would be much better and easier for me, than to share my medal bars and always fear that somebody is criticising my items.

@ Brian: Not everybody has the priviledge to have such "interesting" ancestors, so it's not to bad if there are collectors like me that they really care about history. Do you know what it would be better for me? It would be much better that today's governments would invest more in preserving history and put everything in a museum for public display. In that case I wouldn't have to spend thousand of Euros to put together groups and could use the money to go on vacation to Brasil, Cuba or Thailand and have a good time.

This is a utopical thought of mine and, especially in Germany (but also in Switzerland), no authorities would care to invest money and time in such museums. Most the historical items are kept away in archives, especially Imperial German and 3rd Reich items, for the reasons we all know.

Sometimes I really think that collecting is mainly for satisfying personal wishes and all collectors are greedy to get more stuff (they wouldn't collectors if they didn't do that) and tend to be to emotional about the things they own. Also you my dear Rick (Stogie) are like that... if you are not, you wouldn't collect!

Sorry for venting my thoughts outloud (it is completely off topic!).

What can I add to everything that has already said? Nothing... I am speachless. Long time ago I thought that people in this business (Militaria auctioneers and dealers) they were first also themselves very enthusiastic collectors and interested in military history. If they care about history, they shouldn't thinking in making just plain money, because at the end they are destroying an heritage that can't be put back together again.

It's really bad...

Now I have to spend a lot of money to reunite pieces... perhaps they (dealers & auctioneers) count on it, because they know that most of the collectors would spend a lot of money just to bring pieces together.

I noticed that there is no single dealer & auctioneer in this field (very likely also in other fields of collecting), who never have split groups, also all time favorites like Niemann (do you remember Admiral Lietzmann group??? http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...light=lietzmann ).

I really have to find the most appropriate bidding strategy for the upcoming auction Thies... either ways I am sure that I will spend a lot of money! It's really an addiction...

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Wild Card,

Thank you for your concern. Of course I will be there (it's a quite long trip from where I live currently), but very likely only on Friday (first part of the auction).

It will be very difficult to dissuase everybody from buying the mini chain. That's why I am trying to propagating the fact that I am the owner of the medal bar. But I am not making a lot illusions; it will be a tough bidding battle, although I think that already the starting price of this very mini chain is quite expensive.

Ciao,

Claudio

Here are the two ribbon halfs that should go with "my" medal bar...

Ciao,

Claudio

I found a sculputure of von Mackensen being illustrated on a Hermann Historica catalogue.

There's also his Bulgarian Military Merit Order with war decorations. I don't know yet, if it's really worth to buy such an order that could have been worn by other officers, since, like the Turkish Order, is not marked with his name.

I would also like to buy another Turkish Order, owned by von Mackensen:

This is the miniature chain I am after... the starting price isn't very cheap for the fact that it comes with a prestigeous name.

Dear forumites:

I never posted it before and jealously kept for me, because I didn't want to make too much publicity about it (discretion sometimes is necessary in our field of collecting).

Now that von Mackensen's mini chain surfaced on the new Thies' catalogue, I want to let you know that I am the proud owner of the von Mackensen Spange.

I really want to reunite the mini chain with the medal bar, so I really would appreciate if you would NOT unnecessarily bid against me.

Here is my medal bar:

? Preu?en, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914 (OEK 1909)

? S?chsische Herzogt?mer, SEHO Ritterkreuz 1. Kl. mit Schwertern, Gold (OEK 2475)

? Braunschweig, Ernst-August-Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914-18 (OEK 634)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803)

? Preu?en, Kronenorden 4. Klasse (OEK 1762)

? K?nigreich Sachsen, Albrechtsorden, Ritterkreuz 2. Kl. (OEK 2211)

? Oldenburg, Hausorden Herzog Peter Friedrich Ludwig, Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse (OEK 1523)

? Reuss, F?rstlich Reussisches Ehrenkreuz, 3. Klasse (OEK 2003)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Treudienstehrenzeichen 2. Stufe f?r 25 Jahre (OEK 3524)

? ?sterreich-Ungarn Kaiserreich, Orden der Eisernen Krone, 3. Kl. Gold

? Bulgarien, St. Alexander Orden, Offizierskreuz mit Schwertern

? Italien, Orden der italienischen Krone, Ritterkreuz Gold

? Bulgarien, Milit?rverdienstorden, Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern

? Griechenland, Erl?ser-Orden, Ritterkreuz

Biography of Botschafter Georg von Mackensen (in German, sorry!):

Hans Georg Viktor von Mackensen (* 26. Januar 1883 in Berlin; ? 28. September 1947 in Konstanz) war ein deutscher Staatssekret?r und Botschafter.

Von Mackensen stammte aus einer bekannten Milit?r-Familie. Sein Vater war Generalfeldmarschall August von Mackensen, sein Bruder General Eberhard von Mackensen.

Hans Georg wurde als Kind zusammen mit Prinz August Wilhelm von Preu?en erzogen, und schlug ab 1902 die Offizierslaufbahn im 1. Garderegiment zu Fu? ein. Die Ausbildung dauerte bis 1907. Parallel dazu studierte er Rechtswissenschaften.

Im Ersten Weltkrieg war von Mackensen pers?nlicher Adjutant von Prinz August Wilhelm, zuletzt als Hauptmann. Nach Kriegsende, war er im preu?ischen Justizministerium t?tig, bis er im Mai 1919 ins Ausw?rtige Amt berufen wurde. In dieser Funktion war er ab September 1923 Gesandtschaftsrat II. Klasse in Rom (Quirinal), und von August 1926 bis April 1929 in Br?ssel. Im Juli 1931 war von Mackensen Botschaftsrat von Madrid. Im Mai 1933 trat er in die NSDAP ein. Ab Dezember 1933 fungierte er als Gesandter I. Klasse in Budapest, bis er am 15. April 1937 als Nachfolger des 1936 verstorbenen Bernhard Wilhelm von B?low zum Staatssekret?r des Ausw?rtigen Amtes ernannt wurde.

Nachdem ihn sein Schwiegervater Konstantin Freiherr von Neurath am 4. Februar 1938 in seinem Amt abl?ste, wurde von Mackensen Nachfolger von Ulrich von Hassell, des wegen seiner Kritik an der Italienpolitik Hitlers zur Disposition gestellten Botschafters von Rom. Am 30. Januar 1942 erhielt er den Rang eines SS-Gruppenf?hrers beim Stab des Reichsf?hrers SS.

In seinem neuen Amt beging von Mackensen jedoch Fehler. So arbeitete er beispielsweise nicht im Sinne Hitlers auf eine baldige Absetzung Mussolinis hin. Aus diesem Grund wurde er am 2. August 1943 ins F?hrerhauptquartier beordert und nach einem Gespr?ch mit dem F?hrer seines Amtes enthoben.

Von Mai 1945 bis April 1946 war von Mackensen in franz?sischer Kriegsgefangenschaft. Ein Jahr nach seiner Entlassung, 1947, verstarb er.

One more picture of a REK 3KrX taken from last Thies' catalogue for comparison.

Ciao,

Claudio