Claudio

Dear forumites,

I am posting a RAO 2nd class with oakleaves in Gold (OEK 1664). Since we already had a quite long thread about a RAO 3. Kl. mit Krone u. Schwertern I wanted to make sure that this is a good one and ask for your most appreciated comments on this cross...

Here's the cross...

Ciao,

Claudio

@ Jens: Beautiful cute medal bar you have! I really like these with the tailor's tag on the back. It gives you the opportunity to compare with other bars of the same maker. Too bad that the pin on the reverse is missing

@ Rick: That is interesting to know Max Reich was an official maker of the Schlesischer Adler... My brother has (you can guess...) a single mounted Schlesischer Adler 2. Kl. of Max Reich! He has also a full medal bar of a Austrian WWI officer veteran with his tag on the back of the bar. You can easily distinguish MR's bars, because medals and especially ribbons are nicely and very tightly put together with the particular flat bottom of the ribbon. Very nice!

Ciao,

Claudio

Just a thought:

The more you speak about "undervalued Imperial Militaria", the more people is getting interested and the more prices are going up...

Look a bit what happened with common ribbon bars... in a couple of years prices went up drastically, due to the fact that on some forums so many people spoke about how interesting is to collect them (research, uncommon combinations, etc.). You need only 2-3 hard-core collectors to rise the price of a medal, for example during an auction, either on line (Ebay) or more classical ones (Kube, HH, Zeige, ecc.).

Perhaps, like my brother always said to me, I should shut up and be more discrete about my collecting goals...

Just my two cents.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Stogie,

That's a Sachsen-Weimar Dienstauszeichnung 2. Klasse f?r XII Jahre (Ausgabe 1913-1918, Chiffre "WE").

Ciao,

Claudio

Andy,

Thank you for posting his interesting career.

It's incredible, because when I first looked at this photograph and saw this officer, I thought that he couldn't have been living very long after the picture. I noticed that he looked very tired (look around his eyes), as if he was already quite worn out or sick by the time the picture was taken.

Sometimes

... and here a more impressive bar of a member of the ruler's family in Sachsen-Meiningen!

Ordenschnalle des Prinzen Georg von Sachsen-Meiningen

• Eisernes Kreuz 1914, 2.Klasse (OEK 1909)

• Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803), ohne Hersteller

• Sachsen-Meiningen, Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienste im Kriege, 1915-18 am K?mpferband (OEK 2717)

• Sachsen-K?nigreich, Albrecht-Orden, RK 2. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 2212)

• Bayern, Milit?r-Verdienstorden, Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Schwertern (OEK 410)

• Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Milit?rverdienstkreuz 2.Kl. am K?mpferband (OEK 1352)

• Schaumburg-Lippe, Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1914-18, am K?mpferband (OEK 1190)

• Osmanisches Reich (T?rkei), kleine goldene Liakat-medaille mit S?belspange

Research Rick Lundstr?m:

Leutnant 11.10.1908

Oberleutnant 25.02.1915 M26m

Rittmeister 27.01.1918 A4a

theoretically in Hussar Regt 16 and ? la Suite of Inf Rgt 95.

Rittmeister/Hauptmann aD

Like his wandering father, apparently no actual regimental service.

SA3bX 20.10.14 as Lt, no unit

The 1917 Almanch de Gotha Hofkalendar has him as "kdt. z. Gen. Kdo. G. Res. Kps."

Georg Of The One Name married in Freiburg im Breisgau 1919 Klara-Maria Gr?fin von Korff genannt Schmissing-Kerssenbrock (31.5.95-10.2.92) and they had FOUR children

1) Anton Ulrich, born 1919 killed in France 1940

2) Friedrich-Alfred (1921-1997) who was a monk (so must have switched to Catholic)

3) Marie Elisabeth (1922-1923) and

4) Regina Helene Elisabeth Margarete, born W?rzburg 6 January 1925, married Prinzen Georg von Sachsen-Meiningenin Nancy 10 May 1951 some guy named Otto Hapsburg (b. Villa Wertholz 20 November 1912).Oh, yeah-- he'd be Emperor of Austria-Hungary (if there was one).

And back to poor Georg Of The One Name:

HE died in a Soviet POW Camp at Tschernpovetz 6 January 1946.

Here's my brother's small bar with a Sachsen-Meiningen Kreuz f?r Verdienste im Kriege in Bronze...

Ciao,

Claudio

Wild Card,

Are you speaking of this award?

Hi Brian,

I am sorry to disappoint you but neither my brother or I have the Mecklenburg-Schwerin Order of the Wendish Crown-Knight.

As a matter of fact it's one of the most desirable order. There must be quite a few German collectors who are buying all these because everytime I see such order in a Auctionhouse always fetches very high prices.

The only hope to get one of these, it's a least a VK which appear on the market a bit more often than the classes with enamel or Gold like your beautiful piece in your relative's magnificent medal bar.

Maybe Andreas has one...

Ciao,

Claudio

Don,

This is a late war Zinc version of the Officers' cross. There wasn't a so called "Steckkreuz" or 1st class decoration to be worn on the pocket.

Claudio

Hi Don,

The first (medal) was awarded EM and NCOs and the second (cross with crown) to officer... for war merit.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Daniel,

Great to see you on this forum. Hope to read soon your interesting posts.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Jason,

Nice non-combattant bar... I think to have seen this before: was the bar's owner a Beamter of the Kriegsmarine?

Ciao,

Claudio

Just amazing the quality of this piece, Joe... congrats! These are really rare to find. I remember to have seen one on Iron Time book of S. Previtera.

I am still looking to add such a cross to my own collection.

Ciao,

Claudio

Beautiful medal Bar, Andreas! I see so rarely medal bars with orders in Gold... That is really a treaure.

Can we see also a picture of the back?

Ciao,

Claudio

Dear all,

When I posted the RAO3kl.krX it never crossed my mind that such a single medal bar would be a possible combination. I was just asking your opinions about the originality of this cross.

My brother collects these single mounted pieces, because they look "cute" and they are great for display purposes.

I hope not have molested the "purist" with this fashon statement of mine... I am Swiss Italian... we like decorative and beautiful stuff!

Ciao,

Claudio

and again...

or again...

and again... the funny thing about these mountings is that their needle system seems to be completely time period and look similar to the backing of the medal bars being worn before WWII or even sooner.

Just another example of an "impossible" bar... bought from Niemann, but nevertheless original!

Rick, Andreas,

I remember about 10 years ago a major Auction House in Hamburg sold a large collection of single mounted medal bars which came from a window of a dealer who had them exposed in his shop before WWII. Many of them were still attached to a board and many of them were Imperial medals. Some of them are in my brother's collection and don't even have the needle on the back. But they look nice.

Of course it's impossible that an officer would have worn it alone. To me as a collector it's fine if I am sure that the medal or order is an original and period made. The mounting is just a decoration. Many veterans also liked to display their medals in framed windows with their ribbons folded in a decorative way.

As far as the medal is ok... no problem for me. And what about the many medal bars which have been torn apart to take away the most prestigious or costly awards?

I am just interested to know if this RAO is a pre-1918 made cross.

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Andreas,

That was clear... you can see from the pictures that it's a silver gilted piece. Godet wasn't so prolific making as other juwellers (like Wagner), was he? Or at least I didn't see so many RAO being offered. Also the arms of the cross seem different (wider at the base with the medallion). But I suppose every maker had his own style, especially considering the hand-painted red eagles.

Ciao,

Claudio

It's really impressive, Joe, but I don't know if such crosses should be completely in Gold, or just the medallion, or the medallion and the swords or also the crown. Only 6 awarded are known according to Andreas, 5 in Gold, pre-war awards bestowed during the Colonial campaigns from 1905 til 1908, and 1 silver gilted awarded to von Richthofen and made by Godet.

Here are the links of the very interesting webpages of Andreas:

http://www.medalnet.net/Rote_Adler_3_Krone_Schwertern.htm

http://www.medalnet.net/Rote_Adler_3.htm

The question is: are the swords really hohlgepr?gt (2 separate stamped pieces and hollow inside) and if it's very likely made of Gold or are one piece and silver gilted? Boh? Could this cross be a post 1918 made RAO? Don't know... Please enlight me.

Here's Zeige's "poor" description:

Roter Adler Orden, Kreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern und Krone. Gold emailliert, feine Emaillemalerei des Medaillons, gepr?gte Schwerter, die Krone Silber vergoldet, emailliert und beweglich, an Einzelbandspange.

Thanks again for looking into it!

Ciao,

Claudio

Pic of the reverse:

Dear all:

Herewith I would like to show you a fine piece being on sale on the latest Zeige's auction. According to the description of this article the cross is made of GOLD and the crown "Silber vergoldet"...

What do you think? Andreas comment on that is required, since he's such a RAO's lover...

Btw, beautiful website you have Andreas! Very informative!!

Ciao,

Claudio

Picture of the front: